Other thread got locked, so I decided to start this one with the last post involved:

And clearly you haven't posted anything to tell me, why Skyrim is clearly the better game. You just wrote down a list and said this is why it is better. I at least took the time to clarify why Skyrim is lackluster.

Ah fun times.

Let the debate games begin.

I already started a new topic with a different name though. But let's continue here.

I was writing this response to the previous thread, but when I was about to post it the thread had already been locked.

While these are.. reasons to like the game, are those really the only things that matter to you? Options, whether they're done well or not? Like having the ability to eat but you can't taste anything? Skyrim has a shiny new paint but after the paint worns off you realize that it's pretty damn rusty.

Most of those reasons you listed were done poorly, and almost every one them were expected to be in the game. Why? Because they were done in earlier games! Except for reason number 10 and 8, as far as I know. And the civil war was done so badly I can't even understand.

And reason 3.. What... How..?

It's okay to enjoy to Skyrim but it's pretty clear that almost every aspect of the game was unfinished or just plain badly designed. And I want the developers to hear all the flaws Skyrim has so they can improve the series. Even if it is naive to think it would matter much, it's worth a shot, but people who are satisfied with this "ok" quality of Skyrim are making it harder.

I want to someday enjoy a TES game without mods. It can be done, it's not that hard.

.. Seriously, dagger sneak attacks is one of the reasons why Skyrim is the best game?

I'll stick this here too because the thread got so closed.

Oh my god a post with actual thought, excuse me I'm just making excuses. *cough*

Maybe we should have all the flaws listed on the first post with proper explanations so it would be easier to read? We wouldn't have to explain same things twice?

It'd be nice, but maybe too much work.

Remember Penny, rule of thumb.

We're just making excuses and clearly cannot see how great Skyrim is. We're nitpicking and we're the same people who hated complained about Morrowind and Oblivion being dumbed down. All though I clearly remember saying I loved both games, but that's beside the point.

We're terrible people who cannot see the greatness of Skyrim and this is how an Open World RPG should be. It's not streamlined. It's got really great lore and allows you so many great options. Like killing a wolf to grab a pendant. Or killing a bandit to grab a pendant. Or like killing a wolf and then a bandit for a pendant because Mrs. So and So lost in such a dangerous cave even though she seems to the sort to never leave the city. Unlike FNV where most of the quest you can complete a quest three different ways and there is a true pacifism play through involved. I mean sorry whenever I mention FNV slap me across the face and tell me I'm making excuses.

I truly believe now.

I absolutely agree with everyone.

Skyrim didn't fall short. It is most spectacular.

_end of thread_

I think Skyrim fell short where many modern games fall short - not enough depth, too simplified. Although before I go into it I would like to make it clear that I think Skyrim is awesome (though inferior to Morrowind in all but graphics) and compared to most modern games still outshines them. So yeah, lack of depth. I made threads about this years ago on this forum and some were locked, perhaps I expressed my problems too harsh so I'll try to do a better job of it now. In no particular order:

Magic is way too simplified. I found myself using the same two or three spells for the entire game, despite having lots more in my spell book. In Morrowind I had so much fun playing as a mage. Apart from the basic spells that you could learn by buying them, I had lots of fun making my own. I found that I could make many different types of mages and tailor them to exactly the kind of playing style I wanted. Combined with all the different types of scrolls and magic items, this made mages such a fun class to play. In Skyrim all my mages turn out the same... using fire spells and occasionally healing themselves.

Warrior/Fighter classes too simplified. Just like with the mage in Morrowind, I had so many more options when playing as a warrior/fighter. There were 3 different classes of armour and each class had what seemed like hundreds of different types. In Skyrim there's just light and heavy, and only a small handful of each types. There was also much more weapon variety. Long and short swords, one handed and two handed axes, all kinds of maces, all kinds of shields, and while we're on the subject - the archer/rogue classes had this same massive variety in weapon and armour choices. I really felt like each class had so many different ways to play, so much to choose from. I just don't feel this in Skyrim. Every character ends up being played exactly the same way.

Forts and ruins and caves are all pretty identical. You follow a corridor and when you get to the end there's a button you press that takes you right back to the entrace. You might find an enchanted weapon or piece of armour but they're mostly useless as they're never as good as stuff you can make yourself. In Morrowind and even (though less so) in Oblivion I'd get lost some times in caves and ruins because they were huge. Especially the Dwemer and Ayleid ones. In Skyrim there was a certain point where I lost the will to go into caves and ruins and forts that I hadn't explored yet because I knew all the urns and boxes would contain 7 gold and a sapphire and I'd get an enchanted sword at the end which I'd sell.

I'd go on all night if I didn't stop now lol. Plenty of minor things that all add up to make Skyrim not as good as it could've been.

And if I haven't honed in my opinion yet, I disagree with this. I found Dragon's Dogma to outshine Skyrim. And yes, they can be compared. I hate having to repeat myself on this subject, but I will later. I also and YES VERY CLEARLY DIFFERENT think the newest Saints Row outshines this game. And even with how outdated it is Fallout New Vegas still outshines this game. Metro Last Light outshines this game, [censored] Metro Last Light outshines fallout for different reasons. [Fallout 4 better adopt an apo world like Metro Last Light, even though it was an apo world, MLL felt alive, even for being dead that is the best post apo world I have ever seen].

I have always believed great ideas can be adopted into formats. Ideas are not limited to one style or another.

Metro Last Light, you go all your quest and objectives on a clipboard, that your character was holding and if in the dark you could read it with your lighter.

I'd love something similar in TES. Have your character hand a journal to another character to get quest. Nothing to long. Holding up a journal in your hands to read it.

I'd love to see hardcoe mode in TES. Especially with added cooking. And I think something like S.P.E.C.I.A.L. could work in TES. It's a lot better than trivial perk system that really does nothing. To simplified. Every class is virtually the same with no ability of variation such as:

-Making a bard [unplayable instruments come on, or laterns we cannot use]

-Making a merchant

-True pacifism play through

etc.

No.. you can't give up. Not like this, I can't do this by myself. You gotta stand up and fight! Fight for what you believe in, fight for a better future!

...

There's one thing I can't understand. People have been complaining about Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim. And they probably will complain about the next game. What does that mean?

It doesn't mean they were wrong, although there might have been some stupid complaints too. Of course there's always people who complain, but that doesn't always mean they don't have valid reasons to do so.

It seems like everytime a TES game has a flaw, instead of fixing it they change the whole thing which brings its own problems with it. Like they never finish them.

Morrowind had some broken directions, and it was hard for some people to navigate. So in Oblivion they had quest markers, which you couldn't turn off and the game wasn't playable without them because they also removed the directions. That's one reason people complained. Why didn't they fix this issue with Skyrim?

What I find crazy is you guys are saying Skyrim fell short by comparing it to games like Dragon's Dogma that came out AFTER Skyrim did.

If your going to bash Skyrim's short comings then compare it to a game that came out before it did, not after.

And yes, Skyrim has its shortcomings but name me ONE game that doesn't.

We live in an age where gaming has evolved. The attention span of the current generation of gamers want everything NOW. They grind out skills and want uber power. They don't want to wait for things to happen. Look at the standard length a game is now. 5-12 hours. Why? because people want to rush through it and move on to something else. People don't want to spend hours and days exploring. People don't want to stare at a menu and say "Should I pick flame magic? Or no... wait because if I pick this and this I can't get that later." They want it all now.

I think Skyrim does a great job at balancing the demands of the hard core series players and the needs of the current new generation of players.

One day you all will be complaining about something and comparing its lameness to how great Skyrim was. Mark my words it will happen.

That will never happen!

If I am praising a game like Dragon's Dogma which did COME after Skryim. I think

"why didn't Skyrim have this"

"TES should adopt something like this"

It won't happen. ANd Skyrim was never going to be in any of my arguments because the game just doesn't garner my attention as a hardcoe player. Considering I am the type of RPGr who DOES have the time to explore everywhere. That makes your argument Null. It did not balance those key elements of the demands I as a hardcoe RPG player wanted.

There's many reasons why leveled world just isn't as exciting as the one like in Morrowind:

When you enter a dungeon, you don't have to worry about surviving the dangers that lie within. What is the biggest reason you go to a dungeon? To find some good loot. But with leveled loot nothing never suprises you, it's all expected and in expected places: in chest or on the bosses corpse. You can't get excited about loot because you always know that you'll easily find better after few levels. There's some rare unique loot, but they aren't really unique, and they're almost always useless. Dungeons should have hidden items in them, not just in chest, but in some even hard to reach places so you'd actually want to look around and explore the otherwise incredibly boring dungeons. There should be a chance that when you walk in to a dungeon you walk out of it with a seriously powerful artifact. But you would have to earn it.

With static enemy levels you could try to make an overpowered character who could challenge lvl 20 creatures while being only level 10. And even if your character is weak because you've only leveled non-offensive skills, you'll always have the low level areas where you can train offensive skills with creatures more suitable to your level. The world would be so much more believable.

I can't see why they couldn't design the game like this. It just requires more work and effort than level scaling.

Then with politeness not heard because your reading what I am saying instead of hearing my voice. Move on. stop [censored]ing about a game you are trying to convince everyone you don't care about. You remind me of a girl who keeps telling her friend's she is "so over that guy" and keeps listing all the things she hates about him. Yet she keeps checking his Facebook and talking about him.

So Skyrim didn't garner your attention. So what? Its made quite a few people happy. Many of us are still playing it like it just came out. And many people within the mod community are still churning out mods like there is some sort of deadline to meet.

Move on. yeah, the game isn't perfect. But who cares. We all have our own opinions but this negativity is pointless. Many of us hardcoe gamers love Skyrim and that doesn't make us less hardcoe.

Cheers.

That's the problem

Skyrim is a great game with mods.

The fact that people had to mod its flaws and all its shortcomings. means something.

I speak what I speak because I want to be part of the voice of change.

I may not care about Skyrim. But I care about TES. I have played Arena, Daggerfal, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. I love this series. And I want it to be better. Skyrim was a couple steps back in where I wanted the TES game to go.

I am not trying to convince people Skyrim is a bad game or convince people the reasons why I hate this game. I am trying to speak to be part of the voice of change. I still care about the series.

There is a difference between not liking a particularly game and not liking the series.

I grew up with TES. And I want to see them do better.

Skyrim is not a perfect game but nonetheless I had a great time playing it. I do not think the game is rushed, All games usually have to tone down things when it is getting close to release. If they do not then nothing will get released since it is always easy to say.

Each of us will have a different opinion on what we like and dislike in a game. It is one thing to state what you like and dislike and offer constructive criticism. Some games might not be for you and it sounds like Skyrim is not for you.

I can play the game without mods and I can play the game with mods. I have a great time playing the game without mods.

It's either "It's better than Skyrim." or "Even Skyrim wasn't that bad."

Sometimes game developers do listen to what the fans have to say. At least they should.

But yeah, no one should feel bad about loving Skyrim, it isn't my or anyone elses intention here. I hope.

Personally I'd like to focus more on the fact that someone attempted to cite "Underwater combat" as a reason Skyrim is better than New Vegas, implying that's a key component neccesary in any great game and that both Skyrim and New Vegas feature it to some degree. (Pro-tip: they don't)

I also like this one:

SORRY LILY, I'M AFRAID YOUR TOUCHING STORY ABOUT EMOTION VS. LOGIC FALLS SHORT BECAUSE I CAN'T MARRY YOU. Lydia confirmed for better companion solely on the grounds that you can marry her.

Hell, these are ALL great:

What?! The devs chose a slightly off-center, over the shoulder 3rd person view?! 0/10, would not buy, doesn't deserve to be called a game!

I consider myself living proof against this notion that people with Hate the new thing and love the old in all its cyclical goodness.

Morrowind was my first TES game from there I played anything associated with TES. out of the older games like Redguard, Battlespire, Daggerfall and Arena I liked Daggerfall best.

I think its clear why.

Oblivion rolled around and I was happy as hell I thought the Dremora in the release Poster was Dagoth Ur returning to lay a smack down, yes my naivete expected Morrowind 2 because why wouldn't I? its what the Gothic and Fable series were doing .

Then came the Streamlining Talk, Todds face, more Streamlining, Todds Face, PR talk, More PR Talk. COD... /WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T HAVE TWO DIFFERENT GAUNTLETS? WHY THE H&M IS THE SKILL LIST SHORTER?/

Then its (Oblivions) Art Style and trying so hard to be Lotr because Lotr was a thing in everyone's head back then. (*Cough* Mithril).

I Didn't like it, I still don't like it. Mods are the only prevailing reason I play it. Sure Oblivion has/had its "omfg that is awesome" moments and did amazing things one could only have dreamt about in Morrowind, but it took to much, it restricted to much.

So Comes along Skyrim, my holyhell meter flew off just as hard as it did for Oblivion, the reveal at the VGA was corny as hell but I gave no chickens, its TES and there are Dragons. I'll take 5.

2-3 months later with the GI article and interview? guess who? TODD bringing in more PR, and say how all the things they cut were for good reasons. more PR, some More PR, Conan, Todds voice, more PR. barely able to give any tangible details about the game...hark the SERIES for which he's apparently the head off.

yeah it wasn't looking good to me from the get go.

Then gamescom came around, and I flipped my chicklets....in a good way.

to this day I still play Morrowind and Skyrim, Oblivion as well because we have memories and its a TES game. me being a TES Cheerleader binds me forever and a day to this fact.

So my point in all this if you missed it? Skyrim & Oblivion tried too hard to be other things that are successful FOR THEIR OWN REASONS and not itself. theres so much meat in the concepts and Lore of the Series for which anyone could easy relate too or grow to love, instead the current devs strive to their damndest to stay in the realms of Familiarity.

if TES VI follows the same path, if it tries to be the big thing at the time because "Garner a wider audience" or cuts anymore(ok FOR REAL this time, you couldn't POSSIBLY cut anymore out of the series the only way is up)I'll call it **** plain and simple.

If It tries to be the BEST TES game it can be (and trust me what ever your preferences, we as TES fans can recognize a great TES game) I'll buy 4 copies and the GOTD edition.

Come on man, the guy just appreciates quality game design. Like having underwater combat.

I blame that guy for that ****ing torturous water temple we're all forced to endure in every Zelda game ever.

Haha

So Zelda OoT, underwater combat, centered 3rd person camera 10/10 best game ever

Did this thread really needed to be started up again? I agree that skyrim has its flaws and constructive criticism is key for developers to help the game for present and future games. But all I'm hearing is that its not new vegas dear lord someone help!! guys settle down skyrim is still badass with or with out you!

Why does this bother you so much? If people like to discuss these things then let them.

The problem with mods is that the variety is so vast there is NO way they could or SHOULD have been included in the game from the start. I can promise you if I was to even try and play Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 with a third of the mods I run on my PC, the game would not play at all.

I'm not saying its the console users fault Skyrim seems dumbed down but its true potential can only be unlocked with mods on the PC.

And Skyrim is a great game on the consoles. I loved it on the PS3 from day one. Switching to the PC was the best move I ever made but by no means does that make the console version pointless.