After reading the ingame books and Lord of Souls i'm really amazed at just how badass even the weakest of the game heroes are. To the point its made the plausability within the universe (note I don't say realism) suspect to me, and for my own interest in the lore I need help justifying it to myself.

The best example I can think of in the books is Sul. When he comes to the rescue in the Infernal City, he makes mince of the bandits that have the Prince. For the rest of the story, despite doing many an amazing thing, he IS pretty much the closest thing to the main characters of the games as far as skill in battle goes. He is skilled with a blade, has powerful magics, such as destruction enough to make a being melt and conjuration to summon daedra. Yet... he STILL spends most of his encounters getting thrashed and bloody. Infact, pretty much everyone does, no matter how skilled or powerful. I'm not knocking Sul, infact he was my favorite character I think, even though the Prince grew on me. I may be downplaying him a little much, he did a lot of amazing stuff. However. Whenever a daedra appeared or something equally nasty people pretty much just wet themselves or got beat around.

Now yes, game mechanics and all that, but it doesn't change that lore-wise the main characters of each games become somethng special through no other descernable manner than enchanted gear and training, and being there. They all start out in rags and fall to rats if unwary.

I don't need to list what 'our' heroes end up doing, the legions of monster and deadra they slay, often multiple at once. I actually thought Daggerfalls hero was 'sensible' in terms of TES since in the scheme of things s/he fights no 'bosses'. None the less, many of the creatures they DO fight put most of the thngs in the books to shame.

I'm just going through Morrowind again; and I think the Nerevarine deserves a mention here. At the end of the main quest, artifacts aside, the hero is pretty much just mortal. Despite divine guidance, s/he hasn't really got any divine power. Frankly, I'm having a hard time even comprehending that initial bout against Dagoth Ur. Yes, there is Keening and Wraithguard, whatever artifact armor the hero got if any, and jewelery also. Dagoth Ur could even be weakened. However, that doesn't change the fact that this guy is (arguably) just as much a god as any of the Tribunal and potentially stronger in battle by Vehk's own admission. And... the hero curbstomps him, even if he does reform in the Heart Chamber. I find that encounter more believable; you can't so much as touch him, and you have to end him the same way as Jagar Tharn (in game terms, if not lore). It occurs that he is just playing with you at first, but I don't recall any direct evidence other than the Heart Chamber version of him. This same character can potentially go on to slay an entire base full of Dark Brotherhood assassins and their leader, kill the admittedly weakened but still horrifying Almalexia, and even battle and defeat an aspect of Hircine. And most of this before reaching their max potential. No wonder they head to Akavir: they ran out of challenges in Tamariel.

Oblivion is just as bad in different ways. Sure, one could argue perhaps that in one-on-one battles againts almost-divine and daedric beings that the Savior's Hide, Glass armor, Goldbrand, enchanted jewelry, and potions, may infact be enough to allow them to scraqe by a suprise victory. I'd argue that nothing like that is going to help you when you literally assaulting daedric towers, in that Princes own realm, are being mobbed who-knows-how-many to one. And wearing chain and wielding a silver longsword at first if they are lucky.

Skyrim I at least can somewhat swallow, because in the various lore sources its mentioned just how powerful Dragon Shouts (Thu'um was it?) actually is. It doesn't change the fact that lore-wise the dragonborn that is using a blend of powerful dragon shouts and long range archery from cover and the nutty l33t warrior-guy charging barechested with a hammer are both going to have slain the same amount of dragons by the end.

It can't even be put down to teamwork, because until Skyrim at least, the games heroes have been forced to go solo for the most part. Teamwork is all that keeps even half the cast alive in both books, and in quite a few ingame books also. I recall the vampire slayers in Necrom, I think it was.

In the books, magic seems to be rare to the point of being unseen, and some schools to not exist/are not shown entirely/at all. I don't think I ever saw a mage so much as use a restoration spell to heal a papercut, unless I missed something. When characters recieved wounds they used salves that did little to relieve pain let alone heal them in a suitable time for battle. No mention of the general potions freely avalable for afforable prices at the local alchemists. Annaíg seems to rediscovered Slowfall, which was fun, but that was one of the few recognisable things I noted from alchemy that was practical. Destruction magic was powerful when used, but seemed to leave people too drained to do much other than look pale if they overused it. With the fall of the Septim Empire has Tamariel entered a form of magical dark age or something?

I am able to put some of it down to a heroes gear, of course. Plain clothes and a steel sword, even a fully levelled character can takes some nasty wounds from 'moderate' (I.E. practically instant death if they had turned up in the books) beasties and bandits/soldiers. But thats the thing, a lot of it I can't get past. Restoration is practically the only viable reason for a 'main character' to still be standing, it seems it's not nearly so readily avalable, if at all, as it is supposed to be. I'm almost glad I didn't see it mentioned, because I have a feeling if I had that even healing a minor wound would have left a healer exausted. I understand it's hard to have tension when it comes to converting a game with uber-magic to a book format, but i'm not entirely sure that downgrading everything to rare and only-occassionally effective, and just not mentioning some things at all, was the best way to go.


Sorry if this seems to be bashing the book, because it actually isn't intended to. I love the books, both of them, and all the ingame books too. Infact I think the way Keyes wrote the universe makes it have that dangerous edge that is missing from the games, but they just don't line up well in some things if i'm seeing correctly. I'm a roleplayer and I like to be able to rationalize and have plausable reasons why my characters can do what they do. To build a coherent story. I'm about to write out in story-format my Nerevarine's encounter with Dagoth Ur, and I was already having problems with how easily Ash Vampires were falling. The character has Keening, Wraithguard, the Savior's Hide and thats about it. Late-Teens level wise. And the 'big bad' went down so pathetically easily that my only option is to make out he's going easy.

Then, this evening, I sat down and read Lord of Souls, and frankly i'm tempted to scrap my current Nightblade with her 1.7k screenshots and 200k+ word-count journal. Because aside from making lore mistakes throughout it (that can be easily fixed), what I can't fix is that if i'm to take the books portrayals seriously, the character is no less a god than a daedric avatar, even though i've made serious attempts to portray her mortality. And an inconsistant one at that, since storm atronachs gave her more problems than ash vampires. Rather than never getting seriously wounded, which was not plausable, I made the character with healing abilities and always carrying a few potions. The accomplishments a hero piles up was handwaved by her being 'one of, if not the' best warrors in Tamariel. Now, thats simply not good enough, because the books have changed the goalposts of what even a skilled warrior can do in TES.

I might regret posting this and have reconsidered by tommorow, I have only had a few hours sleep in the last 48 hours, and have now been up a very long time, but I found that after reading the book - as awesome a read as I found it - that I opened up my hobby and project of four months solid work, and just had no idea how to continue, since i'd been writing by watering-down versions of the universal rules the game set out. Powerful healing magic healed serious wounds, but having 1 hp wasn't always a mortal wound, while sometimes it was depending on the foe. Magic is avalable to anyone with enough study, and as such even in small communities it can be found, that while rare the tougher forms of armor are not THAT rare and allowed a skilled warrior to battle multiple deadric beings. However, now it seems that magic is powerful but limited, and exausting, battle against even the weakest things the games throw at you are almost certain death. Even so much as entering a daedric realm such as Mehrunes Dagon's should be practically instant death; let alone assaulting one alone.

'Classes' such as dedicated alchemists who have severe 'fortify' potion addictions, and scribe summon scrolls for a hobby seem like they might have a chance in some of the situations, but my mind boggled how I can plausably roleplay a (sufficently) mortal character (that is in the least bit relatable as a human/mer/whatever) that can fight toe to toe with some of the creatures they do with short blades and light armor.

I don't plan to throw aside my work. I just need help rationalizing the difference in tone.

Sorry, I know this is a rant thread more than anything, i'm just so frustrated. I have spent so much time on this 'project' and so much time getting the lore and details 'right' that its painful.

They're... ya know, heroes. *shrug*

I agree with you about the Daggerfall hero being the most "realistic" in terms of combat abilities.
Even after he was a well-established adventuring hero decked with artifact aplenty and rich armors galore, my Daggerfall character spent most of his time getting beaten and bloodied, then resting up for the next bout.

One could explain the books away by invoking the demands of dramatic story-telling, or the recent games by assailing the demands of casual players, but neither of those is really satisfactory.

Ah ... yes

For the books, the superpowers were quite toned down. Can't really engage an audience unless the Hero bashes against the Conflict until it reaches the Goal. It's the struggle that lets us identify with the dude. According to billy idelson and whatnot. That's all Hollywood writing though, stuff to get the audience's juices flowing

As for comparing the games and the books, making both agree might not work out too well. Instead, I would suggest being consistent with the setting you're already using (game!Morrowind, not keyes!Morrowind). From there you could judge and adjust whatever Keyes added through Infernal city and Lord of Souls

My personal theory is that first, the hero is just lucky. After taking on five bandits at once and miraculously surviving, then that person (whoever he is) becomes a hero. The machinery of the mundus recognizes that, holy bejeezus, this guy just did something amazing, and so the mundus starts co-operating with him. The laws of reality bend themselves over backwards so that he can continue to achieve.

Bloody Ancient Vampires. =P




Yeah, I do believe that's my only option, and after a full days sleep i'm actually a little embaressed just how much I let it get to me. It's obviously not a big deal and is simply a matter of theme, and the theme of my project is already set. The theme of the books work for the books. In my opinion they are a great addition to the lore in they give more depth to a lot of things.




Thats... amazing. I think I might adopt that. =D

The games are a representation, not the actuality. The PC doesn't really take hundreds of direct blows from swords, hammers, axes, etc. You don't really think you were alone when assaulting Red Mountain, do you? Or that you only had a handful of troops when letting the Great Gate open near Bruma? As Greg Keyes said:

That you fight hundreds or thousands of bandits, marauders, and exotic monsters is something the games did because it's fun. It represents the trials and tribulations your characters goes through in a way that makes for enjoyable games. It'd be frustrating and boring if every enemy could kill you in one or two hits, you only fought a dozen enemies over the course of several weeks, and you had a bunch of people backing you up and "taking your kills". Similarly, the books represent the trials and tribulations its characters go through in a way that makes for an enjoyable story.

I agree with you to a point, but only to a point. The games are both scaled down representation but they are also actuality in many situations, because yes, the Nerevarine did assault Red Mountain alone. As it was, the final act of the battle against Dagoth Ur was better suited to a lone agent. The 'raids' for Keening and Sunder were best accomplished by slipped in and out. Battling Dagoth Ur himself, after conversing with him, in the heart chamber was not something that a great force was needed for. Leading a large force up Red Mountain would have just been asking for a Battle of the Black Gate from LOTR. Redoran was the only House that had major force and holdings on Vvardenfell, and the other people whose suport you sought would have been minimal at best. Numbers were not on your side, I don't believe. Wheras, Dagoth Ur's strongest would siply reform and rejoin the battle, and his legions consisted of blight mosters and daedra. We saw in the books trained soldiers handled things like daedra. It wasn't pretty.

A lone, fast, agent was all that was required to sever his connection to the heart. I beleive ratehr that the ashlander and great house soldiers did other things; such as assault Sixth House bases to draw attention away from Red Mountain while the Nerevarine did their thing.

I think that realistically there were many more troops at Bruma, though still a small number, but that doesn't change the fact that the CoC went inside alone. There were times when you were given allies, and they might represent more than are there, but to pretend that something that never happened is a representation for other thngs would be hard to prove and in my view incorrect. Just line the hero of Arena was all alone. And the hero of Daggerfall. There is representation, I agree, but your twisting the facts into your own 'actuality' if you pull thnsg that arn't even actually represented and fly int he face of direct points of the stories. It wasn 'The Hero Nerevarine, and his legion of soldiers' who stormed Red Mountain. Nor was it the 'Champion of Cyrodiil, and his army of battlemages' that went from gate-to-gate in Oblivion and assualted paradise. A good potion of the main ques was trying to gather what soliders could be found for the battle of Bruma, and the Blades stayed to protect the Emperor. A lot of the missions were infiltration and negotiation. The CoC was also simply an escaped prisoner, and not even forced to be a Blade, with no resources that Jaufre didn't supply or they didn't build themselves.

As for the Heroes takignt hat many direct blows, yes, I do and the books actually support it. The characters do nothing on the larger scale of what the various heroes do, and even then they get some terrible injuries. To pretend that the Heroes of the games somehow managed all they did, even if you follow your interpretation of events, without taking a lot of nasty injuries would be... interesting.




Sure, I agree that its there because its fun, but while it might work for you I can't take a step back and say most of this didn't happen - because it did. Due to scale thngs might have to be scaled, such as you don't run into two bandits within five minutes, but over a few days. The problem with how you are arguing this is that other games have done the 'allies, and many more enemies' thing and done it well. Most Bioware games for example specialize in this.

At the end of the day, like it or not, the Elder Scrolls until now have been about a lone person overcoming amazing odds, whether the 'reason' behind it was technical or story driven.

Representation can only be taken so far. And there actually has to be representation for something to be represented. And scale and representationa re too entirely different things. In Morrowind the Nerevarine was sent to the Buoyant Armigers in Ghostgate for maps, not backup. You never summon the war council as Hortator and Nerevarine to form an army to march on Red Mountain. In the Gates where you are supposed to have allies you are given some allies; but in most you are alone with no support, and fight through a scaled-down segment of Dagon's realm because i'm not willing to believe that his forces in each gate consist of a few scamps and three dremora. Those few enemies might represent many more, but you by your lonesome don't represent you, and thirty plate wearing soldiers.

All this is just my view, but i'm firm in it as a roleplayer and writer.

And even if you disagree, and we go by your own take on it, the question still stands - because the heroes do fight things one-on-one that would paste any of the book characters. They accomplish herculian feats, without being superhuman themselves.

Sure, I don't mean to say they were literally at your side. But the majority of monsters you fought were there because it made the game more fun. You did get Sunder and Keening yourself, as well as take on Dagoth Ur yourself, but IMO, there was more going on than just you alone running all over Red Mountain and doing all the work that needed to be done. Plus, Dagoth Ur was practically rolling out the red carpet for you. I'd like to think it was something comparable to the War of the First Council. According to http://imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-plan-defeat-dagoth-ur, it does sound like it was to be a campaign of war, with you to make a surgical strike at the heart.


Well, the CoC was also crazy. But yes, he did manage to enter and destroy Oblivion gates alone. Other people could, too. Like for Bruma's city gate, you lead Burd and some guards through with you so they can see how to close them on their own. It's implied that after you leave, they do just that. The Telvanni, though with trouble, could as well. Argonians poured into the Deadlands and kicked Dagon's ass so hard his generals retreated from Black Marsh (granted they were modified by the Hist, but still).

The Great Gate was likely to be a battle similar to Red Mountain. This is, after all, something that can wipe out one of the more well-defended cities outside of the IC in a single night. The troops mount a heavy defense, and you're left to slip in and make a surgical strike. Mankar Camoran welcomes you into Paradise willingly, and doesn't give any real resistance until you're alone with him and his kids.


I don't doubt they took a lot of nasty injuries. In the books, though, even one good cut across your gut pretty much means death.

Oh, that i'd agree with completely, but others peoples contributions were off screen. I like to imagine small sclae battles throughout Vvardenfell as the Nerevarine converses with Dagoth Ur.



I would imagine what caused the Telvanni trouble might have been a lack of information. The Argonians had prepared and were changed, and had the numbers, so the Daedra closed the gates themselves. If I recall correctly, its been a while, it's the CoC that teaches as you point out with Burd how a small number or lone warrior can get in and close the gates. Telvanni probobly tried the same 'force' method by overwhelming them with magic, which wouldn't ahve worked because they would have been suprised and few in number. Do we know if the secret of sigil stones was found out beyond Cyrodiil,



True enough wth Paradise, but to be fair it wasn't like it would have likely slowed the CoC too much by that point after closing so many gates. I wonder how Mankar to people like Vuhon and other mages of the books. Suppose we'll never have a direct comparison.



Yeah, and thats where part of my problem was I think. It made things more 'real' and 'dangerous' but not in a way that was faithful to the lore and how magic and potions are supposed to work. And not because they didn't work the same; but simply because they omitted their existance. If any of Annaig's stuff can be trusted, her alchemy seemed pretty true to the game. I really do wonder if with the fall of the Mages Guild and the rise of the College if Tamariel didn't go through a couple of decades where potons and magic were hard to come by. I would have thought it would have been mentioned though if that was the case.

But they're still a representation.

Reach heaven by violence.