Dyus isn't a rotten liar, he just didn't mention that he was making his predictions 5 seconds in advance of the act.

Didn't read through this thread aside from the first page, but Jyg went back to being Sheo as Lady N mentioned. Sheo even mentions that the title of Sheogorath gets passed done continuously during his Skyrim quest, suggesting that the cycle with people like Arden Sul or the CoC isn't new, and will happen again and again.

The point of Dyus is that if you understand completely all the underlying laws and tendencies of the universe, you can logically deduce everything that is ever going to happen. Molecules and atoms will interact just so, electrical signals will be released precisely like this, the synapses of mortal brains will necessarily fire in this sequence as the stimuli of the world logically progresses around them and enters their sensory receptacles. The point is scientific nihilism. There is no choice, only the illusion of free will among mortal 'minds.' Given the unlimited power and resources of the God of Order, I am inclined to believe Dyus when he says that he has accomplished this. He was wrong about the mantling of Sheogorath and defeat of Jyggalag because a new Madgod was thrown into the mix. A spontaneous and inexplicable deity devoted to chaos and confusion. His calculations were disrupted because a new agent of madness assumed the place that should have always been his master's.

Alduin's defeat in the First Era, the Warp in the West, the Dwemer and the Tribunal, couldn't have been predicted by a grand formula. What caused Dragon Break's aren't logical, so reality must be fixed.

'Couldn't have been predicted?' Says you. You're not the one who's been taught to understand the fundamental mechanics of the Aurbis by the god of Order and Logic himself.

The problem is, the Mundus's very nature is what possibly what made Jygg himself completely and utterly insane, especially since it is the least predictable and logical place in all of existence. You can attempt to decipher and predict what will happen, the major problem is it can't be done with 100% infallible accuracy.

It's so easy for the charlatan to claim he predicted something a priori, post-hoc.

That Dyus had been sealed-in is no real impediment to his ability to keep apprised of the major goings-on. The after-tremors of high-concept ruckuses the likes of Numidium can be felt in every era, even if that technically makes them before-tremors.

Now, if he could of predicted, say, Fargoth, then I'd say he's legit.

Who is to say that he did not? He's too apathetic a character to go to any great length to convince you of his omniscience. The fact that he did not reference any minor events means nothing.

As far as argumentation-for-our-own-pedantic-purposes (I won't dare touch character interpretation), that's a rather flaccid thrust bordering on an appeal to ignorance.

In any case, I'm just not that impressed that he referenced events that are common knowledge in even the most backwards, backwater, bumble[censored] reaches of the Colovian heath.

Is your own assertion that Dyus lied about his prescience any less of an appeal to ignorance?

Only a madman could predict illogical actions 100 percent of the time.

Humans and, by extension, mortals frequently, even predictably, exhibit irrational behavior. An impossibly intelligent being could, theoretically, see the mechanics behind these patterns and, indeed, behind the mechanics behind those mechanics to extrapolate to the infinite. Illogical actions may seem illogical to those with stake in the realms of mortals and gods, but to those beyond everything becomes a linear progression of inevitability.

The simplest reason to not believe Dyus is that The only prophecy we hear him declare (our failure) does not come to pass. His demonstrable record is 0-1.

I can see that, and I understand why some people would interpret it that way. But I remain convinced that his failure in that prophecy was because of our impossible role as spontaneous god of chaos. Something even Jyggalag couldn't take into account. The mantling of a god that doesn't exist anymore.

What reason would Dyus have to lie? The presence of volume 34,857 of the Prophetic Deduction seems to indicate that for 34,856 volumes, Jyggalag's prophecy was maintained, and only in this 34,857th did we spoil everything.

Dyus worked by a set of rules that applied in Sheo/Jyggalag's realm, but was then confronted by an outsider to whom the rules did not apply. He tries to apply the rules he has, but they don't work.

Lady N is right, Jyggalag will revert to being Sheogorath after a while, because he always does, but the intervention of the CoC has changed the rules, and so SI has changed, and so Sheo/Jyggy has changed. Still mad, but slightly differently from before, because he's absorbed a bit of CoC in the process of stopping the Greymarch. It may even have made him a bit less unstable, in which case future Greymarches could have been prevented.

I'm convinced he didn't predict the future, because the future is unwritten and uncertain. It hasn't been sealed. His ancestors, or his own eyes, may have seen what happened; its possible he heard the collective memory, or he carved it on that library cell's walls. Or he pulled you from his favorite events.

Infinity is a byword for meaninglessness.

In this sense, Dyus predicted that everything that will happen will happen.

He was right. History is progressing. But he's no prophet.

I really hope so.

Yes, because I'm not deriving my conclusion from a lack of a evidence. My assertion is simply that the Mytherian's testimony is all ipse dixit and no bite, to butcher some idioms.

However, I don't think that Dyus is a liar, even though I had said just that in terms unequivocal. Really, He honestly believes what he said. As is the Madman's prerogative.

I'm very disappointed no one is considering my point of view. Jyg is the inverse of Sheo, right? Sheo is a remnant of Lorkhan, a Padomaic echo created when the heart was ripped from lorkhan. Therefore, Jyg (sheo's antithesis), is an Anuic echo of Auri-el - created, most likely, when Alessia and the selectives attempted to rip the time god asunder. He's the remainder, just like sheo. But his very existence, his continuation of being, is a violation of his sphere, his nature - stasis/anu. I believe following the events of SI, he attempted something between the leaping of the magna-ge and the reversal of subgradience of the dwemer and retroactively uncreated himself, and effectively creating a backwards flux of instability/change in the entire universe, or at the least the outer realms, (what else would happen if the god of order uncreated himself?) allowing for such events as the invasion of Mehrunes Dagon, the sundering of Sheo and himself, the weakening of Azura and her banishment, etc.

Maybe I'm all wrong. But maybe i'm not.

Explain the Elder Scrolls and other prophecies.

And remember, Dyus has succeeded in his prophecies. He correctly guessed what was needed for the Staff, even knowing of people on the opposite side of the Shivering Isles from his prison.

No. Jyg isn't the inverse of Sheo, Order is not the inverse of Madness. Jyggalag is quite insane in his own way, always trying the same thing while expecting different results, too stubborn to consider other options, until you defeat him during the events of SI (forcing Jyggalag into using subterfuge instead of brute force). If Jyggalag were the inverse of Sheogorath, he would be the sanest being in the TES universe, yet all evidence points to Jyggalag being just as insane as Sheo himself, just in a different manner.

I see him as so sane that for all intents and purposes he might as well be considered insane by mortal standards. But...my interpretations of TES characters seem to draw more criticism than validation, so take that with a granule of sodium.

Actually, I thought this anolysis was quite nice when you first posted. I just forgot to say so. I don't know about the uncreation part, but Jyg as an Auriel echo in counterpart to Sheo as a Lorkhan echo is good. Although, I don't think we need any other event to have caused it aside from the sundering of Lorkhan from his Heart. 'Cause, after all, Auri=Lork, so it ought to be a traumatic event for both. My opinion on that is that somewhere on Nirn the hole is sitting around that once held the Heart. *coughEternityWoundcoughcoughUIAHRAANcoughcoughcough*

There is no such thing as sanity. It's an appropriation of "what works;" normality. Jyg isn't normal by any means.

The Elder Scrolls still aren't terribly understood. But, as they are fragments from a pre-reality state, they don't work under the laws of the Mundus, and must be outside of logic.

Whilst most other prophecies point to a specific event, they are all convieniently vague enough to allow the fulfilment to manifest by various ways.

Neither calculate the future.