What I'm saying is that the "immature objectification" was used too hastily. There was nothing like that there. Wanting the female to look good isn't automatically adolescent objectification. Neither is wanting the male to look good (or if it is, then I'm for both of those). I'm all for equality, but equal does not mean the same.

Of course lots of people want their characters to look good. But that's not the point. The point is that this "cleaveage armour" is part of a demeaning and objectifying portrayal of women in fantasy.

And, no, it's not wrong to call this portrayal (and those who find it appealing) "immature" - "immature" is not restricted to biological age. A person's views can get more immature, in the relevant sense, as they get older.

Edit:


:thumbsup:

It does turn immature as soon as "naked babes only" comes in to play - a mature person should be able to handle sixuality in general, see himself as sixual, and not only "the babes" and make piece with the fact that women have six drive as well and may like to see attractive man.
Most of the fantasy games support exactly that - "immature objectification" where males are wearing as much as they can carry and females are as naked as developers can get away with. Bethesda fortunately does not suffer this to a great degree, but mostly because they tend to forget about existence of females in general (just look at the same skeleton and walking animations in Oblivion), and since they started to make an effort to remember I don't want them to get in to any "bad habits".

I don't get it? Can you explain to me why you want to know where the asian stuff is? This is nirn not asia right?

For many people, men and women, it is looking good. Your demeaning threashold is far too low IMO, but I guess everyone has their views.

EDIT




1) the immature comment was made in response to the armors revealed which are not about naked women

2) Women themselves (many of them anyway) actually like some clothes that don't completely hide them. As I said, look at the movies. They're not all made for adolescent males. Don't pin that only to the immature men and please understand people, whether men or women, may have different tastes. It's not good to be making conclusions about people so easilly

Wait... so because I think a women in "cleavage armor" is sixy, I'm immature now? Not saying that is what I want that in the game that I am trying to immerse myself in... but that doesn't mean it isn't appealing. I also find it pretty mature.

Also... there is not yet an example of "cleavage armor" in the concept art that I know of, so its really a moot point. We have some outfits with cleavage, but they are NOT armor, and not meant to be protective wear. I suppose we can debate if they in turn make sense for what they are being used for, but its clear that they are not meant to stop the blows of a sword. Its like the barmaid concept art. She is clearly in a situation that it makes sense to show cleavage.


@Sshodan - I agree that men should play a sixual role in games as much as women, especially if its done in a way that makes sense. IMO, denying either is unrealistic, so I have no problem with that.

Well - and to really get into this would take us way OT - I think when one probes the reasons behind those preferences, immature male views are often playing a role.

But anyway, I should probably just leave it at that. It just sticks in my craw when game developers put such puerile content into their games. Mainstream movies and TV shows find it much more difficult to get away with it these days (which is a good thing); it seems like games are still catching up, probably because they are still seen as largely the province of male teenagers. I hope Bethesda do a better job than most.

Then play a male character and get over your mammary gland obsession? :blink:

At the very least this thread made me realize how little people know about TES and it's influences. :laugh:

I don't think it's immature. It's biology. Men in strip clubs will pay 50-60$ for three minutes of time with a woman in a skimpy outfit, which is about the same amount of money they would spend for a game like Skyrim. six sells. It sells big. It's human nature.

It sells to women, too. Does anyone think the Twilight movies would be as successful as they are if Edward Cullen was played by Clint Howard?

Kind of.

Win. Truth.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about with women having custom fitting armor. If anything, all characters should be able to pay to have their armor customized and fitted according to their body type. Adds some more realism there for ya. Back in the days if you weren't rich you'd have to pay for some uncomfortable hunk of metal modeled after someone else's body. Certain movement restricitions and resistance penalties could be some drawbacks for wearing unfitted armor.

Is it me or has this thread gone off-topic? It started off about oriental style armours, but ended up about genre discussion.

In today's GI hub video, the designers spoke about how they took "epic realism" into consideration when creating and placing monsters, building locations, and so forth. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to armour. A buxom tavern wench? Hell yes. A bandit exposing her core to the cold air while offering easy access to her vital organs? No. Or at least, not with much fidelity to the immersive world that they're working to create. Which as we keep hearing, is meant to be much more harsh and gritty than previous games.

I'm fine with some gratuitous cleavage, but it should make sense in context.

Hahaha.. hahahahahahaha... hahahahahahahahahahaha! bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you funny. And I hope VERY sarcastic.

I didn't say that parts of an armor set will vanish due to change of the owner? But how is it that you have decided that all armor will be stolen? And why should a male kill a female to wear her armor. He obviously can't fit it. And it would be rather stupid to wear inefficient armor in battle with the [censored] son of a [censored] dragon.

I disagree that the issue is biology. Or rather, everything we do is biology, so how do we explain different cultural attitudes to six, beauty, etc. ?

Once you open up that can of worms, the way women are portrayed becomes more important. If women don't _have_ to be in chainmail bikinis, you have to think about what it means when they are portrayed this way. Platemail cleavage= appeal to a certain way of viewing women, depicting them as sixual objects. Which might be okay in certain contexts- but not in TES, please.

This game takes place on nirn in tamriel and not earth in asia correct? Am I missing something?

It's really not immaturity at work. I wasn't gonna bother you about it except to say one thing. Don't expect that men grow out of that at some point. Sorry for the off-topic.

A ton of things in the ES world are influenced by and resemble Eastern culture, so the OP was wondering where it would be seen this time around.

alucard7

1. What realistic reason the armor would have to be revealing? It is not city clothing, not date clothing, not anything even remotely romantic or sixy - pushing six appeal in to things that have not need for it is nothing but cheap "fanservice", and yes, anyone who allows themselves to be "guided in to buying a game by their six organs" is not thinking with the right kind of head, and can't be called mature - a mature man can control his six drive, and most of them would be insulted by the devs trying to make something like that a "selling point", or at last have a grace to pretend to be insulted And making everything about a woman to be about six is what teenage boys tend to do, most of them do grow out of that, and realize that there is a "brain" not only "boobs", but some stay in the grasp of woman = six and nothing else equalization far past the point of normal. And "not-quite-naked-babes-because-devs-want-lower-rating" count as well.

2. Clothing? Sure, I'm a woman and I like clothing with cleavage, and would love to have some appealing low cut dresses and fur coats for my mage character, or for the city visits by other chars. But armor? Adding cleavage to armor is nothing short of ridiculous.
In short:
Mature is putting six appeal where it belongs, equally and for both genders.
Immature is dragging six appeal in to everything, and for the sake of that adding cleavage on armor - a place of a cleavage is on a dress, not protective gear. And half stripping woman while living the males packed in to heavy armor, so that a male paladin looks like a paladin, but a female looks like a paladin themed stripper.

Please...No one will buy the game for the pixel cleavage. And there is also no realistic reason for men to dual weild claymores or wanting big helmets that would tire their neck too much, or armor their characters couldn't move in. Some people like their characters to look good (as they define it) more than realistic. If you look at all the mods, you'll see that (and it's safe to assume at least some of the mods are from women). Ofcourse it would look totally ridiculous if there was no realism at all, that's why one would have to find balance.

The fact that they learn about the second one doesn't mean they forget the first one.



I don't care about cleavages on armor so I have no problem with your view (and I have no problem with the view that wants it on armor either). I hope they have armor you like and find realistic. What I care about is the whole attack to the "immature males" on something many females also want. Just calling the thing unrealistic is enough for any argument. After that, it becomes a generalization.

PS Pretty late here (or should I say early :biggrin: ). Hope the above doesn't look rude. I have no such intention.

I welcome our cleavage armour overlords!

At least it isn't like a JRPG where bikinis are considered excellent armor.

A woman can be sixy and intelligent and formidable at the same time... <_<

This is medieval fantasy, people. Men are usually buff and manly and women typically wear revealing garb even while doing battle. It isn't medieval history lesson 101. Its also not as though she was wearing a chainmail bikini with platform boots and fishnets... people are (once again) overreacting over this. I will be disappointed if my female AND male characters can't look at least somewhat sixy in some light armors and clothing, and I am a 21 year old female saying this, not a 14 year old boy. I don't play a game where dragon hunting is the focus and look for mind blowing realism... :rolleyes: