Many questions of the lore in the TES games have been answerd, like "Where did the elves came from?" or " How is Nirn created?" or questions like that. But meanwhile, lots of other thing haven't been answerd yet, and this lead me to some other questions, that I clearly have no idea of what the answerd is.

Where do people of Nirn go, when they die?

And do they all go the same place? like, do the Akavir races go to the same realm as the races of Tamriel?

How come is there still spirits haunting Nirn?

Are the people of Nirn somehowe bound to the realm of the god that they worship?

Where do the "lesser gods" like Vivec and other gods on the mortal plane go when they die? Do they also have their own realm?

And if the old Sheogorath is gone now, and an new one has been named mad-god, where did the "original" Sheogorath go?

How did Tiber Septim become a Divine god?

Allways wanted to know, because when have the realm of the Divines, and realm of Oblivion, and also the realm of the Worm King. Don't know if there are other realms, But my main question is where the races of Nirn, go where they die.

Dreamsleeve. Yes. Because they have a reason to stick around.

Good topic:

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=714862&st=0&p=10316539&#entry10316539




Only if they try hard enough to be like their gods and give themselves up. See Sheogoraths petitioners or Mankar Camorans followers. The Nu-Mantia intercept uses the phrase "Alligned AE", AE being a connector. Mankars Commentaries talk about the severing the connection to Mother Nirn to enter the demense of Dagon and having to become Destroyers.



Vivec has his provisional house which seems to resemble a god plane. He describes death as a special kind of sleep in Morrowind.



Where did James Bond go when Pierce Brosman stopped? It is the role that matters, not the actor. The props certainly help.



He had Ysmir act as him for so long that there no longer was a difference between the god and the man. Long story. Look for the Arturian Heresy and Nu-Hatta from the Sphinxmoth on TIL.

Or because they've been bound to stick around against their will.

Regarding the dreamsleeve and the death (and rebirth) of mortals: not everyone in this performance plays an equally important role. It's the Ruling King who http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11, not everyone.

Not everybody gets to reload their saves, but everybody goes through the dreamsleeve. Now sure how you can see it in any other way.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=714862&view=findpost&p=10316539

I know that Ashlanders and Chimer had special places for the honouring of their ancestors, which were defended by the spirits of ancestors that had not served the family and had been bound against their will to defend it.

I always foudn Dreamsleeve confusing. Only the Tsaesci are worse...
So, to recap, reincarnation is the norm, with pit stops at either Oblivion or the Planets?

You might add in another factor

Ask yourself what makes a God powerful.

Then consider how mortals try to become Gods

There is mantelling - that is walking in the footsteps of a God until you become that God - I take those footsteps to be emotional/intellectual (include spiritual in that) after all you are trying to become one with the consciousness of that God. It is that consciousness - your sense and understanding of the nature of the God's power that forms the connection to that power or the control thereof - as in the microcosm so in the macrocosm. Just as your understanding of magica allows you to cast various spells. Your mind holds and projects the form into which the Majica flows and this, when released, results in the unleashing of a spell effect.

Look at what happened to the 'Sleepers' of Dagoth Ur an dthe victims of Coprus. Those that were strong spiritually, mentally and emotionally, who were able to retain their own memories and idea of themselves appeared as they had always been - where others found themselves moulded by Dagoth Ur's will into the bizarre creatures of his desire to conquer.

Vivec in acheiving CHIMp apparently went past reliance on the 'mere' absorbtion of the power from Lorkhan's Heart - Vivec attempted to achieve oneness with the mundus simply by understanding it ... and seemingly in succeeding to do that became co-terminus with the entire Mundus through the application of intellectual, emotional and spoiritual sensitivity - and thereby ascended.

So in the Dreamsleeve, when you are separated from your body what do you relate to? A God has to create a powerfully self-sustaining form in order to be divine - or partially so. Thinnk of all that power that must be held or channelled ... He has to be very strong to take on that heavy mantle or like Icarus flying up to the sun his wings will melt and he will fall. So, like Icarus, mortals have not achieved the necessary integrity and if you are mortal you can lose your memories of yourself and thereby lose yourself almost entirely.

ps - I'm not to happy with CHIMp either

Why do you call it "Chimp." What does the "p" signify?

he is making fun of the concept.

Well of course.

I'd like to know if he has any particular criticism (thus showing he understands it), or if his dislike is completely misinformed.

"And if the old Sheogorath is gone now, and an new one has been named mad-god, where did the "original" Sheogorath go?"

you have become Sheogorath, so you are now he, with no stopping or beginning in between. As in, you are Sheogorath and have always been Sheogorath, after becoming Sheogorath. Take Nocturnals Cowl for example, as a simplified explanation of the power of the gods of TES--- Once you wear the Cowl you are The Grey Fox, and have always been the Grey Fox, while you know yourself, to the rest of the world you are and have always been someone else, because thats the power you have inherited. why i say this is an example of the power of the gods is because they both exist in time, and outside time-- best described by Vivec directly, in Morrowind. sort of necessarily changes the rules of perception.

Well since you put it that way Dumbkid here are a few critical aspects:
I feel that the concept which is as reasonable as any other has been tied into matters that are not so sympathetic to various views that I and a lot of others hold - and really we are all monkeys and that the use of this 'CHIMp' rather makes a monkey out of a lot of Lore that was fine as it was.

Also if we take the 'God' is everywhere view then God is a Chimp as much as he is a man ... also I feel that as presented this concept has been used to make monkeys out of us all too Further Vivec delights in making a monkey out of his followers/readers ... there are just so many reasons ...

more 'important' links ...
monkeys on typewriters
the three wise monkeys
monkey business
chimps' tea party
clyde
hint: monkey see, monkey do - mantelling

ohh noooo they're everywhere ... well except among the ESF smileys - but we have a monkey in our smileys at the Wormhole


There again does my view on this necessarily have to remain criticism? Surely observation serves as well to demonstrate? Still it was your choice.

One thing I have noted is that there is a strong approach to this Lore Forum that attempts to 'enshrine' various concepts rather than encouraging or leaving people free to follow their own views ... for my part I do enjoy the enshrining but also love to create. Understanding is. Everyone understands everything and everyone's understanding is different in practice from the next guy's - people do obviously make different choices of what to say about things - I'm a free spirit and as such I see everyone's view as being as valid in their own terms as any other so I have to ask is there really a wrong way to understand? That's why I am always happy to share my own understanding - it is not necessarily better than another's, but it will always be different and the things we say will always be different. That's the fun of it for me.

Why not ask MK (famous fan of the Monkey King) what he feels about this?


Salvan -my views:
If the Old Sheogorath is dead then he is likely in the Dreamsleeve - and simply sleeping.

But he also appears to be very closely tied into Jyg - do you think it possible that Sheog and Jyg are two parts of the same being? One part so sane that it is mad and the other so mad that it is sane. I always kept on thinking of Sheog as Schitsophrenic - split personality. So maybe that is what he actually is? Previously the Jyg part was buried in Sheog's mind (remember that the Daedric Princes are co-terminus with their realms) and Sheog was at the forefront. But Jyg has broken free of the prison and so now Sheog is imprisoned - in his own realm which is also Jygs.

Well, there is a right answer to what CHIM is, and there are wrong answers. Of course, CHIM is what enables people to "follow their own views," and to "make different choices of what to say about things." So, yes, there are wrong ways to understand CHIM (meaning: if you understand it incorrectly), but CHIM enables you defend different (even incorrect) understandings of CHIM.

Anyways, if we're going to go the monkey route (although chimps aren't technically monkeys, but you know that), then CHIM is why an old world monkey goes ape-[censored] when he meets a new world monkey. Except the new world monkey is also a time bending agent of destruction and/or laurel-wreath-worthy exploits, and it would take 100 Shakespeare's 100 years to write one of this monkey's plays (if he took the time to write one, but he's decided not to), and he can drink rum with his feet (wait, all monkeys can do that last one).

And without CHIM the rest of the lore would lose a significant amount of depth.

Fair enuf - I'm not going to say you're wrong there.

As I'm sure you know - here are a few more possible applications of the above:
the three wise-ass monkeys - they did not care because no one stole their nuts
monkey business - there's a lot of it about
chimps' tea party - Regent's Park Zoo - it appears they love it
clyde - left turn Clyde!

Even the wrong answers have to be part of CHIMp - besides we are all part-apes. But do we kill every monkey or ape on sight? The death of so many animals may be due to rather slavish obiesence to pseudo-economic/social and political pressures. Basically a lack of sound and sensible government based on nonsenses written on impressively titled pieces of paper and a lack of standards in education.

One may wonder why Vivec did not kill Dagoth Ur himself - and maybe the reason is that Vivec might have had to repeat it and might then end up mantling him ...

The Ordinators have killed Dagoth Ur several times, apparently. But as the Nerevarine found out firsthand, Dagoth Ur can come back to life, due to his connection to the Heart.

Appreciated Crimson - but the places I found keening and sunder would have been just as accessible to Vivec had he travelled alone - and he pointed me to their locations. So he could have collected them himself. And it is that very repetitious nature of the killing of him that would have made it so like mantling. Also had Vivec destroyed the Heart himself then Dagoth Ur would have been unable to return.

An extra re CHIMp - it's such a Universal concept and its relatively plasticity renders it a convenient excuse for just about anything - and that underlies what I feel to be the misapplication of it.

Hope this is of some relevance and value to the OP

I think http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind%3a%50lan_to_Defeat_Dagoth_Ur seems to explain why he didn't

lols - I remember that document very clearly - I wonder when Vivec intended to supply the maps - he never gave one to the nerevarine - as with the maps, so with the rest. Well, apparently he was mostly hot air. That makes his so-called reasoning in that scroll empty verbiage. According to the Trial he had other reasons in mind.

Basically Vivec could have have held the barriers with his two accomplices while he travelled to his targets without an army to back him. And he is a thief with strong ties to Mephala so assassination is his forte - as we well know. So having infiltrated the Citadels he could have released his hold while killing the Ash Vampires with the other two members of the Tribunal taking the load briefly. And that would have been it. Also as a God he could have crafted some serious artifacts to assist him in this endeavour - not the hurried things that the Nerevarine had to make do with. See above.

My oh my, aren't I becoming the cynic in my old age

Depends on Belief, Culture, and Race.

Nords who die in Valiant Combat go to Sovngarde,

They get reincarnated on planet Earth to play the Elder Scrolls games. I mean let's face it, there has to be some kind of spiritual connection for guys like me to play a game over and over and over again for hundreds of hours. Well that's my excuse for my addiction.
Seriously though, this thread is really interesting.