When you create the staff of Sheogorath, you are told that you are the first mortal to posses a "dedicated Deadric artefact".

Now, first, what exactly does this mean? Dedicated, as in, you are the owner, and you will it? (eg: make it go to you, make it change possixrs etc. like others do).

Second, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Deadric artefacts made from the blood of deadra princes? Or atleast, don't they represent a portion of their princes? If so where the hell is the "soul" of your staff from? In game it basicly says two things:

1. The power comes from madness of manic and demented into the pools and through that into your staff. This makes sense in itself, you are the madgod your power stems from madness. But..

2. Deadric artefacts are parts of Deadric Princes and..

3. You staff IS a deadric artefact (well.. reportedly )

If #3 wasn't true, it'd all make perfect sense. But if #3 IS true, then it implies somewhat indirectly that either Sheogorath isn't completly Jyggylag, and you draw the deadric aspect from Him, or that you are Him, but then, Jyggy must've lost something

Because if #3 and #2 then some Deadra must've given the power

This isn't exactly "is the PC a deadra" question. We can't answer that. I'm just trying to find out where all the power comes from. Remember, we're in Oblivion, near the void, creation doesn't exactly go here much.

The staff is part of Sheogorath because it's part of you and *you* are Sheogorath. You made it, you draw power from it. The old Sheogorath is gone forever.

As for whether we can answer if the Champion becomes a Daedra Prince.. sure we can. Mortals can become divine (Talos, Arkay) and the divine can become Daedra (Meridia, Malacath) so can a mortal become a Daedra? I don't see why not.

Sheogorath = The Shivering Isles = Daedra.

Obviously items like the Cuirass of the Savior's Hide were in some way completely different from the staff... either much lesser in power, or not really of the Daedric Prince's body. The main quest of Oblivion states that there is "blood of a Daedric Lord" in the artifacts, but the Staff of Sheogorath must be part of his real power, his body, or somesuch thing... It might even be beyond our comprehension, from the material that made him or something.

If it is power from Sheogorath then it is power from Jyggalag, since they are/were the same person. This could explain why Jyggalag can be defeated so easily at the end of the SI questline. It also explains why you take on certain divine powers at the end of the questline (though VERY far from what a reali Daedric Prince can do).

It is said multiple times that you cannot become a real Daedric Prince, and this is from Sheogorath and Haskil's own lips even as they already know the plan to give you the staff. The staff does not make you a Daedric Prince.

Now, if you want to argue that when you defeat Jyggalag you "split" Sheogorath and him and make yourself into a Daedric Prince, that would carry more weight. Still, since you can walk Nirn, and since you have limited power, I would argue otherwise. Maybe you will eventually grow to become a full Daedric Prince though, we will have to see... in ESV (or beyond).

I'm guessing by 'dedicated', it means that it won't leave you after some time, as the others do according to old tales

It is never said that you cannot become one with 100% certainty. What is said is that you are not one currently, which is obvious. But even Sheogorath himself isn't sure "No you won't [be a Daedra Prince]. At least.. I don't think so. But you'll be Me! And I'll be gone.".
At the end, Jyggalag isn't sure what to call you. "Mortal? King? God?" And for the Prince of Order to not be sure about something is a pretty obvious sign that it's not so cut and dry as you being a mortal throne-warmer.

I never said it was cut and dry... just that the staff itself does not make you a Daedric Prince.

A fair question. You won't, really. At least I don't think so. But you'll have power. My power. Try not to lose it. It's a pain to replace. But, for all intents and purposes, you'll be Me. A Me to fight the Him. Since I won't be around. It's simple, really. If you don't think about it. - Sheogorath

You are Sheogorath, Sheogorath is a Daedric Prince, you are a Daedric Prince.

Also, Sheogorath is Jyg, so you are Jyg.



You now have the power to summon Dark Seducers. They've always served the Duke of Dementia. I think they have a thing for pain. And here is the Ring of Lordship, a symbol of your new station. Symbols are important. They carry weight in this Realm, and others. You would be well served to remember that. - Sheogorath

[no more auto stiching?]

Well I know I don't agree with that last part... "for all intents and purposes you'll be me" doesn't really equal what you want it to equal, in my opinion. A mortal with a piece of Daedric power and a realm to rule fits the same sentence. And again, you can walk on Nirn.

In TES it does, where symbols and beliefs affect reality.



Using no powers or anything related to being a Daedra Prince. The barrier prevents invasion and Daedra Princes using their power to subjigate mortals, as Dagon tried to do. It does not prevent Daedra from existing on Nirn and never has.

Meh.



Point me to where that's written... Dagon could stroll through the Imperial City all he wants, as long as is he isn't using his power to harm anyone? I don't believe that's written anywhere in lore.

Sheogorath isn't just the man with the poor fashion sense and a goatee, the realm is part of the Prince, being bound to it as you are in the Shivering Isles means you are the Daedric Prince or atleast the bit that is the personification of himself.

It's not to different from people, we've got our thoughts, the part that says I and then there's the other part of us that deals with our digestive system, the breathing, the seeing, all the stuff you're not being bother with. Sorta like a Haskill to do the menial tasks.

As long as he doesn't go "Look at me! I'm Mehrunes Dagon" in giant four armed maniac mode, why not?
If Daedra couldn't exist on Nirn at all, then they wouldn't be summonable. There'd be no Dremora working for the Temple. Or Daedra companion dogs pretending to be Scamps in Orc mansions or anything like that.

I didn't want the discussion to go this way but what the hell...

Prowler, you're not Jyg, I think that's clear. Jyg is Jyg, that's the only thing certain.

The question here wasn't particularly if the PC is a DP (deadric prince from now on ). It was: is the staff deadric? What is it's true source of power? Where is this source from? How come Jyg allowed it in his own realm? (if as you say it comes from SI themselves).

One explanation might be that during the transition, you basicly snatched part of Jyg from him, the Sheogy part so to speak. But it's very wild theory.

You see, the problem here is that "you make the staff to become Him". So how can the staff be of Him if you make it to be Him? Ofcourse, unless we made a paradox

Hahaha... Is Barbas a Daedric Prince though? I think not. Anyway you might be right, I just don't think so... The whole "barrier between Nirn and Oblivion" thing is a ES4 creation anyway, is it not? I think they would apply it pretty heavily to SI then... Haskil even makes a point of mentioning it at the very begining, so it seems odd to me you can just stroll on through Cyrodiil after supposedly ascending to Daedric Princedom.

I think it's great that Bethesda made the story so full of lore to debate, by the way.

Well the staff is made of things from SI, which is Jyggalag's realm modified by Sheogorath. Sheo obviously has almost complete control of SI at the begining and likely made preperations for the staff then, since it's his plan all along to give it to you. Since he was going to hand it to you it is obviously not all of him, just a piece... Once Jyg comes around it is used to weaken him (damages his health) and so I would say you are using a piece of him to harm him... it's made from his realm, blessed by the fountain...

It helps if you stop thinking of Sheogorath and Jyg as different persons and Princes, there is only one Prince and his body is the Shivering Isles. The Isles has two personality's, both fighting for the capital -the cognitive thought. Jyg starts out as a subconscious urge, slowly making the persona of Sheogorath more orderly. Sheogorath gets off his throne, he's no longer in perfect control of the Isles, and can't sit on the throne anymore. It's a symbolic gesture.

As the personality of Jyg gets stronger, the Isles start to reflect this, the people start to worship Jyg, symbolic for Jyg taking control over the thoughts of the Isles, then Jyg invades the fringe of the Isles, taking control of all the fringe thoughts of the Isles and soon after the persona Sheogorath disappears from the thoughts of the Isles.

When Jyg makes his run for new Sheoth, it's symbolic for taking control of cognitive thought, getting to the throne means he's the new personality of the Isles. Except this time round, the persona of Sheogorath didn't just disappear, hanging on by the staff a memory of the persona of Sheogorath, Sheogorath could defeat Jyg.

It is not, yet if it were would that render it meaningless?
There are more than a few Towers, White-Gold was one of them.

More on topic: If it walks like a Daedric Prince, and it talks like a Daedric Prince, is it not a Daedric Prince?

Nice one yes. I noticed but didn't think that much about it. Makes perfect sense.



The problem here is, that you think that SI and Jyg/Sheo are 2 different things. You say "the Isles could defeat Jyg" but that's an oxymoron if the isles ARE Jyg.

I think we just all went mad as Sheogorath originaly intended, raving about paradoxes

Mmh. That should be: "Except this time round, the persona of Sheogorath didn't just disappear, hanging on by the staff a memory of the persona of Sheogorath, Sheogorath could defeat Jyg." Doesn't make sense otherwise. While also keeping in mind that Sheogorath is Jyg because they're both different personality's of the same thing.

I think a Bethesda employee...or one of the folks who wrote the lore should step in here and help us clear these questions. What exactly is what?

Why? Debate allows people to give their ideas freely about SI events before this topic becomes stagnant.

The "Control for Cognitive Thought" theory works out just fine. Remember that Sheogorath states that symbols are important.

There are many case irl that deal with split personalities vying for control of one brain. Both are the same person, and both are usually extreme opposites. The split usually occurs when the person was faced with extreme trauma, thereby creating a different persona with the personality traits capable of handling the stress. The two realize that they simply aren't there when the other is in control and reacts with a sort of self preservation hatred of the other.

Bringing the two out of conflict is often the goal of therapy when this happens, not to eliminate one or the other.

Admittedly, the "blending of the two" isn't what happened in SI, but facing one another and coming to peace seems to be what happened. Jygg even says "Fare thee well, Sheogorath." A very cordial departure from one said to vehemently hate the Prince of Madness.

Or hated...

Sheogorath was created out of Jyg, He was Jyg when Jyg was not himself. Now however both exist at the same time. Is it not just possible that Sheogorath and Jyg are now two different entities?

When you took the staff and beat Jyg you essentially beat Sheogorath. Normally when Jyg came around Sheo was knocked back until the other Daedra cursed Jyg back into Sheogorath. Now Sheo found a way around that, by putting himself into you. Making you him, him you. You, Him, us = me basically. Jyg now controls what used to be him and Sheogorath, and you are now Sheogorath and the Shivering Isles. That would however mean that Jyg is without a realm, but I'm sure he can find something to replace SI, he did say he was leaving after all.