What to you mades a game an rpg? Seriously, numbers? Numbers are an in-menu representation of my character's limitations. They show what he can and can not do. An rpg has little to do with that. The kind hearted swordsmen could care less if his one handed skill is one or one-hundred. He doesn't know, and he doesn't care. All he wants to do is help the next person he comes across however he can.

The thief that takes from the rich and gives to the poor does not have any numbers somewhere that show he can give poor people money. No, that's their choice. That's what an rpg is. A game where you can make your own role and play with it.

Unless you're roleplaying a God....

In your post I've highlighted the parts where the sentences converge in opposite directions and completely contradict each other. How you think and act in the game is the role-playing in the social sense. It's entirely different and completely irrelevant to your skillset, and your skillset is also an aspect of roleplaying. The skillset defines the talents of your role, and how you behave defines the "personality" of your in-game character. If the skillsets are being dumbed down then there'll be less distinction between different characters you make.

But you seem to have highlighted all of his p- ....Oh... :sadvaultboy:

Haha, nevermind. My computer was messing up I guess. Disregard!

Wait... wouldn't 'a kind-hearted swordsman' with a swordskill of 1 just be some kind hearted bloke who happens to be in possession of a sword?

Hahahaha, this reminds me of Monty Python. When the peasant is arguing with King Arthur about how he became king.

"Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

"Be quiet!"

"You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

This.

Elder Scrolls games are the best roleplay-heavy games, for me, because instead of clicking someone else's pre-written options and watching someone else's pre-written story, the vast majority of roleplaying in TES games is done by me. TES games just provide a framework for that which is superior to other CRPGs I've come across.

I've never understood how numbers and dice and so-called complexity (I've never been intellectually challenged by even the most hardcoe RPGs; simplicity is oftentimes elegance, and this always sounds like misplaced elitism to me) equate to a more pure or more roleplay-heavy RPG. If what is meant is that these things are common elements of classic RPGs, that's certainly true, but where was the roleplaying in those?

The argument against streamlining classic RPG elements is perfectly valid (that some people enjoy them is justification enough), but I think the terms ought to be clearer. All the "true RPG" ruleset stuff has little or nothing to do with playing the role of a fantasy character, least of all in a single player environment.

I think creating and developing your character is JUST about that. Numbers is a a way to do that. I dont need the numbers thrown in my face, but i like to develop my character skills / attributes etc, and not my own gaming skills.




Good for you that you are a vivid roleplayer, which i am just not.

Nothing's stopping my mage character from stealing that staff on the table. The skills only show if the choices our roles make will be sucessful or not. Skills are a neccessary evil, and I really don't like them. Less...more, skills don't make a game an rpg. They show what a character can and cant do. The game will be an rpg, albeit a bad one, even if there were no skills at all. You could go around, still steal stuff, fight things with swords, craft things, talk to people. You'd still be able to do it all. There just wouldn't be much reason to play, cause there would be no feel of progression.

The reason there are numbers in rpgs in the first place are just for that, so there is a feel of progression. It has little to nothing to actually do with the rpg aspect. It makes sense that a thief would get better at being sneeky the more time he spent sneeking around, but how does one implement that into a game? I dont know, sadly. That's why numbers are a needed evil. They give your character a sense of progression, and perks will also be doing the same.

You made a choice at the beginning of the game to be a thief. All the characters start with a blank slate. Is a thief at the beginning of the game any less of a thief towards the end of the game? Well, no...not really. The thief towards the end obviously is going to be better, but they're both still theives. The numbers just show the progression, that don't have anything to do with the role itself.

Why would raisind your skill in, say, swords suddenly make you a better axeman??

You might be interested in LARPing. It requires a bit more imaginations than roleplaying in a TES game, but I hear it's a lot more immersive. You control every action by acting it out, you can have genuine conversations with others, and the focus is more on living the life of your character than just slaying enemy #113 to gain 50 EXP in your swordsmanship skill. You really CAN do anything (may have to use your imagination for some stuff, but that's true for any game).

The game has more role-playing elements than Oblivion from the new 280 perk system alone. Lets not even get into more defined Races, body settings, town economy, morrowind style factions, radiant story/ai, and professions.

You guys are just being doomsday naysayers that have no valid claim, as I completely showed you are wrong.

I've known a few (online) roleplayers who LARP in the real world, and I've always fancied having a go at it. It'd mainly be the physical challenges that appealed to me rather than the roleplaying elements, though; on the contrary, the reason I love TES games as a roleplaying platform is that my characters can be and do far more than even the most conditioned, confident, willful and beautiful of us could ever dream of in the real world.

I prefer to keep reality and fantasy very much separate, lest I forget which is which.

I have a hard time understanding how anyone can come to such conclusions on a game they haven't even played.

This.

I loved getting called "assface the great"in fable.

#1 - It isn't competetive, it's a single player game :rolleyes: . How many times must we restate the obvious?
#2 - They haven't said much about Radiant Story other than how they use it, so that might be part of the solution to the improvement you mentioned.
#3 - I might get flamed to a cinder for this, but so far, I agree with all of Bethesda's judgement over what is superflous and unneeded in the game (I am not assuming that it was Todd's sole idea). There weren't many substantial differences between weapon skills in Morrowind or Oblivion, and attributes were really bleak in the context of a skill-driven leveling system (especially since people could power-level all attributes to max and characters weren't really that different in this department).
#4 - Perks seem to be the new substantial way to define your character, since there are so many of them. Therein might lie your answer, but we'll have to wait and see how well they implement it :shrug:
#5 - Can you people please at least try to get over the fact that TES isn't catered solely to purist roleplayers anymore? Face the facts, Bethesda wants a bigger audience. There's no denying it. And, sadly, achieving that demands some sacrifices :violin: .

TBH many have a different view of what makes a rpg an rpg.
For me it's story and every character's development, rather than stats and level ups.
As of late I've been catching up with info on Skyrim, the pics and and artwork look stunning, the new engine seems fantastic.

The few pieces of quest related info has been good as well, characters reacting to your player actions, moving around and holding tasks / jobs.
All this makes me think the rpg side I'm looking for may be in game.
However, this is a CRPG, so pictures, creatures, stats, weapons are going to take the focus from now to release.
So I can wait, and if it's just a pretty game with lots of space and dungeons I can play it create my own fantasy stories then mod it.

Eh, ohwell. Judging by the responses. And their, quality, I'd guess TES is just another action game now. Every game out is an action game, because you know, that's what makes money. I guess all the people who actually want a roleplaying game can go elsewhere. See ya!

I find that rather insulting, being that I've been trying to defend my possition with logic and calm words. Its fine if we don't agree, but you don't have to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

IMO, The Elder Scrolls has always had better NPC interaction than other RPGs or other games for that matter. Not in terms of depth, really, but in TES you can talk to almost anyone, even Dremora if you use a powerful charm spell. (Not much dialogue with Dremora though) You can interact with anyone you see, and towns do not have generic NPCs but rather they are all named. In Morrowind, you can even kill anyone you want.

As for roleplaying, I myself always liked TES because it doesn't force me to play as a criminal, nor a knight in shining armour. I can be whoever I want; in Oblivion after I completed the main quest I roleplayed as the Champion of Cyrodiil and pretended (because I couldn't actually do it in game) to work with Ocato to keep the people of Cyrodiil calm and peaceful while the Empire was facing difficult times by going to the Imperial City, talking with Ocato and then touring Cyrodiil and helping people.

I'd personally say: Wait until we have some actual information about the game.

"Use imagination"? Yeah, I imagine that I am a farmer and just harvested 10 carrots. Where are they? Use the console to add them? Maybe we should just imagine we have swords as well? That way I can use Arma2 game and role play using that. It has no stats or skills, but I could imagine pretty much anything I wanted. Sorry, but that's not a great game concept. A game needs gameplay elements. Even role playing ones.

Well, think about it. There is woodcutting, mining and cooking. Probably farming as well. You can also create your own weapons and Radiant story will make quests more interesting from what I've heard. You begin the game in a dungeon and you are not told why you are there, a great start to let you develop your character.

This is only after a few months of info. I'm confident there are still other surprises they will show.

We have hardly any information on any of these points, and I dont even know what you are talking about in the 3rd point, so your just assuming, and you know what they say about assuming? :whistling: