Wrong.

Didn't the novel mention that it retained all of its velocity?

Sorry about all the novel questions I ask, it's just I don't have a copy. Shoulda done TESting Your Knowlege...

At which point does the lore not support the result? The only given explanation turned out to be completely accurate.



Note that this is from Morrowind.

Which is my point. The novel creates a result which is not specifically supported by pre-existing lore. The novel then creates backup lore to retroactively patch up the story. The "proof" from the 36 Lessons does not specifically state one way or another that the velocity is maintained, nor who, what, or how the Ministry of Truth is being maintained. All it does is provide a brief explanation as to why there is a floating rock.

This is called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina. I'm not arguing that it is now lore, I am arguing that the method employed to make it lore relied upon poor storytelling and makes me seriously question what kind of tripe may be expected in future TES games.

The actual lore has been around for a while, I remember previous discussions regarding it being in stasis prior to a the book. It was established that it was going to retain its velocity quite some time ago. Vivec has such powers over time, as he also used them to allow the Nerevarine to use Wraithguard without the nasty effects.

There are two questions running through each other. The question if suspending the Moon was a Dues Ex Machina and the question if the novel retroactively patches up the story.

To the first question. Okay, yes, keeping a Moon afloat at full velocity is definitely an Deus ex machina, but Vivec being a god is entitled to a few.

To the second question. Considering the Sermons predict the result you can't say that the Novel retroactively patched the story. The only thing it added was that the love of the people for Vivec was fading. Something to which it is entitled, as this happened way after Morrowind.

Vivec either achieved CHIM

or

Was taken by Daedra

or

otherwise disappeared.

His fate is unknown.


The thing with the moon isn't a contradiction at all because it actually mentions in the Sermon that the moon is "frozen" magically. Its velocity is still intact. When it hits Vivec City, it's hitting it with the original launch velocity.

You are correct regarding the second if you look at them independently of each other. However, my point is that the "patching" wouldn't have been necessary if there was no first question but since there is a first question, the second is in fact a retroacive patching (albeit marginal).

My overall gripe here is that Bethesda has been relying on the Deus Ex Machina far too often recently and it is beginning to wear thin (just like a TV show which should have ended 3 seasons ago). If we continue to allow (or even defend) this practice, soon no one will enjoy the stories told by Bethesda and TES will die.

There is no patching, at least not in the sense that I understand it. The Novel is not trying trying to explain anything away that contradicts the current story. Instead the moon crashing down has become part of the story.

What exactly do you mean by patching?



Now that's a whole other argument. Could you elaborate further on those instance? I'm sure I'll agree on at least one of those.

Not in the contradictory sense, rather in the addative sense. Since they added a Deus Ex Machina, they needed to also add more lore in order for the Deus Ex Machina to be explained. This is really a minor "patch", one which is really only an issue once examined from the position that the Deus Ex Machina is a bad move. If you don't find the Deus Ex Machina to be bad (or even neutral) you would probably perceive the patch as simply being more lore (which essentially it is) rather than more lore with the intent to explain their Deus Ex Machina.



I wouldn't call it a whole other argument, more like the underlying basis. The two biggest in Oblivion were the Avatar of Akatosh (which is pretty much the literal example of a Deus Ex Machina) and the Colassal Black Soul Gem somehow granting immunity from Mannimarco. I have a list around here somewhere of all of them (I actually collected them for a thesis at one point), I'll see if I can't find that list again.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but you think that the god Vivec suspending the Moon is bad use of a Deus Ex Machina? So if this is not something a god should do, then what should a god do?



Very much agreed on both accounts.

---

Edit: I should add that the difference with the account of Vivec and the Moon is though that there was no impossible situation that could no longer be resolved. It was very much an act of god, but not in the sense that it is used to resolve an impossible situation, one god throwing a rock at another who then suspends it above his city does not in anyway contradict the internal logic of the story. (As such, it's not a Deus Machina at all!).

I don't really have a problem with Vivec suspending it since that happens outside the scope of any game (by definition, a Deus Ex Machina must happen during the course of the tale. If a deity acts in an unexplained way in the backstory, it really isn't a Deus Ex Machina but rather simply establishing the setting). The problem is in the retention of velocity causing the destruction of the entire province through a poorly supported chain of events. The actual Deus Ex Machina in this case isn't really large, however it is very noticeable and it "feels" wrong (hence why my suspension of disbelief could not be maintained).

What should be added though to make this chain of events clearer? The way and reason Lie Rock was convinced to crash down and how Vivec stopped it and his motivations for keeping it in place at full velocity are all covered.

What hasn't been covered is how Lie Rock kept that velocity but I don't believe that is important either. It's in the same category as "Let there be Light" which doesn't explain how there was Light.

That is where we differ in opinion. I believe that the how is always important when weaving a compelling tale (which is why I find the film The Prestige to be vastly superior to The Illusionist even if it did not scientifically explain the results, it at least gave the fundamental concepts on which the film is sustained). Without the how you cannot easily keep disbelief suspended so whenever something as noticeable as the destruction of an entire province happens the disbelief is not maintained leaving the reader (or player) wondering why.

Had they done a better job explaining the how, then it wouldn't really be that big of an issue because while reading you feel compelled to accept their reasoning. However, since they failed to explain the how it forces me to consider the possible hows and that forces me to logically process everything. Since it is a fantasy realm where our physics do not apply, logic cannot be correctly applied breaking immersion.

You asked what should have been added. I think a better question would have been "In what order should the story be told?". I think that they should have held off on the Infernal Book until after they had a chance to shore up the lore (simply adding an "Interview with a god" book where some scholar picks Vivec's brain would have sufficed). At this point, I would have even tolerated a "Retcon DLC pack" which adds some more lore.

I'm afraid I've seen neither movie so I can't comment on them specifically.

Though I think this is more a problem of genera. At some point the how of things is explained either by some piece of technology, magic or divinity. I'd rather not see this limited to what can be understood. Rather by what can be imagined. At the same time I can understand why you'd like to see the events that lead up to the destruction to be more elaborate, it's quite a change. Though I prefer it over maintaining the status quo.

"But Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock just above the city and then he pierced the monster with Muatra.

When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed....

'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'"

"Keeping its last intention intact" means if that it kept its velocity - naturally, just saying "it kept its original velocity" is not very poetic. This image is doubled in saying that its "holding back their destruction," afterall, if its velocity wasn't kept intact then it would hardly be holding back anything's destruction apart from some slaughterfish in the nearby water...

The 'Who' is quite plainly stated as Vivec ("Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock"), the 'What' and the 'How' are also stated ("so that if the love of the people ever disappears..."). Like I said, Vivec froze the rock, the love of the people keeps it frozen.

Those are the "fundamental concepts", magick, love, and a raise of the hand. What else needs explained?

Dude, you make no sense. It's lore. It's canon. It's fact. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point, and it's getting pretty pathetic.
You are arguing that you "think" how the lore and canon was added to the lore is...cheesy and wrong, that isn't your call to make.

Also, please explain how this is Deus Ex Machina, the very definition from the source you linked states, "a plot device whereby a previously intractable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with an often contrived introduction of a new character, ability, or object."
What's the new character? Ability? Object? There isn't one, therefore how can this be Deus Ex Machina?
These facts were IN Morrowind.

Considering there is no arguing over taste, that is his call to make.

What it comes down to for him is that the destruction of Morrowind hinges on what essentially amounts to saying "A wizard did it, with magic" and finding it incredibly lame. Though I don't agree with him, it's a fair position to hold.

Most anything is going to sound lame when you take out all the details and reduce it to the bare bones. The details are what make it interesting, take out those and of course you won't like it. That's like saying you don't like the Mona Lisa because its essentially just a picture of a lady, or you don't like baseball because its essentially a bunch of guys running in circles while a ball is thrown around.

Ofcourse, I'm just being brief for the sake of brevity.

There was a Dragon Break, and as such he had always been a god, even before his 'human' self was born.
Vivec is Dead. He lost CHIM, and was either killed by the Nevarine or by Dagon.
Edit: or zero-summed

You must remember Bethesda are makers of Video games first and Lore is not the first thing in their minds, sure lore is important so things make sense but not every loophole on how the problems with the "lore" with this meteorite. It's just one small problem in TES lore , don't over do it.

Much of the lore is based of over-anylisation. I love it.

As I've said before; He should have just flung it to Cyrodiil. Nothing of value would have been lost.