Hey all,

I've searched for a previous thread, but found nothing which really sums up the concept in general. I know people who love them and people who hate them, but where do you stand on minigames? Do they add or subtract from the experience and why?

To clarify I am referring to games which augment skill progression (speechcraft and lock-picking in Oblivion specifically)

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Within Oblivion there were two obvious ones, one which I thought was done reasonably (Security) and one done poorly (Speechcraft). Both were quite repetitive, but I felt the security one was at least a meaningful skill test, whereas speechcraft was just silly.
Additionally the games largely detracted from the skills in general as they allowed players to exchange player skill for character skill.

More broadly, I consider Oblivion's combat system to be effectively a minigame too. In essence its all about learning rhythms and timing (kind of like guitar hero). Combat positioning is also player-based rather than character based and can massively affect the combat resolution (levitate?). Likewise sneaking is also player based in many contexts. Thus the idea of extending these 'gamey' mechanics to other aspects of the game appeals to me.

I feel there is probably room for improvement for each of these minigames (I've written some ideas in other threads). However, there is also room for more games like this for other skills. Take Armourer for example. Repairing is little different from point, click, %check, repair/break. This could easily become a minigame where you have the item image up with patches of red and green and choose various parts to repair by clicking on them. Having high armourer could also repair adjacent parts etc etc (I'm not advocating this particular game, just giving an example).

I disliked both minigames. It's possible the could have been done better, but I think it really should depend on character skill.

The Security skill in general was worse in OB. I like in MW how you had several grades of lockpicks, not to mention probes. I'd carry around a couple of each, low end picks for smaller locks, higher quality for stronger ones. In OB I just carried around 50 of 'em and would spam a lock, which doesn't seem very thief-y to me, carrying a big sack of metal sticks.

Audience: ON OUR FEET! (ack, now I have RHPS stuck in my head)

I detested the speechcraft game, and humored the lockpick game until Ihad enough lockpicks to ignore it.

I wouldn't be adverse to an armorer mini game actually, so long as it didn't prove too irritating/drawn out when all your armor has holes/dents/rips in it.

As for the mini games that are already there, speechcraft needs work as always (Oblivion was bad, but Morrowind's style was hardly better, hoping for a big improvement here) while security was a step sideways if anything and I agree with the poster above that it didn't feel quite right carrying around a pile of lockpicks to spam locks with. I'd like to see graded lockpicks return, but perhaps keep the mini-game in some new fashion as well.

Other than that... a drinking mini-game! That leads to a bar brawl.

The lock pick system was much more practical in Fallout 3. Even though a system like that cannot simply be adapted, I believe lock picking should be much more simplified...the whole tumbler aspect needs to go.

Speechcraft was a big mess. The whole idea that you could see how people would react to certain gestures kinda devoided the idea of even having the skill. That being said, I don't necessarily think they should revert to a system like Morrowind's. As useful as the taunt technique was, killing someone with no penalty because you instigated them makes very little sense.

I'd consider myself to be a pretty avid elderscrolls player and I can honestly say that I never use alchemy. I don't know how, but I feel like a minigame can be added to alchemy in order to increase the effectiveness of a potion, depending on how well you perform. So in other words, theres no chance to fail at making a potion, but instead you increase the quality in which your potions are made. (spoiled, quality, exclusive...etc..)

Go on...

The idea of real-time armor hammering sounds sweet. I'm not sure if it would be a minigame but maybe just equipping the hammer and "attacking" the armor or weapon, just a couple times, no matter how much you actually repair it.

Its bound that some of the game has to be player skill based.
They chose for it to be in real time, if they wanted pure numbers it would be turn based.

The speechcraft minigame was pointless, but I think they had the right idea by deciding what kind of topic to talk about, but there was no need for player skill or character skill
The security minigame was better, but it should have been scaled in difficulty better. Harder at lower levels, easier at higher levels. Maybe it could have been more dynamic

There should also be an option for a pure numbers check, which I believe the security minigame had?

I'd like to see a few more, maybe.
They make sense for some things, others not.

Me, don't let go Medievlil on you ass! ermm..I mean it was a different, rougher time?


I think failing should be an option when creating a newly discovered potion. In PnP terms, roll a 00 catastrophic failiure and your white phosphorous blows up in your face :nuke:

edit: didn't nuke used to blow up into a mushroom cloud?

I hope they do away with them altogether. I like Character skill and dice rolls to affect the outcome, not player skill.

To fix that, the developers could add a chance that instead of attacking you, the person has a chance of going to the guards and reporting you for harassment. That makes the option a riskier one, and prevents spammification (it's a word in my world).

I think the idea in Morrowind & Oblivion where you cannot create a potion until you have two different ingredients that share common traits should stay...though the effects can be unknown..This would rule out the idea of creating a new discovered potion...but it would rule in the idea of creating a potion with unknown effects.

(which is what they already have, right? )

@Mistahtokyo: I can't quote you, because im reading your post in the typing field. Thats a great idea. And then you'd go through the whole stop criminal scum ordeal, except you could possibly prove your innocence (of petty crimes only) through speechcraft? I don't know...its a stretch.

Minigames need three things:

1) Must be at least vaguely sensible as an anology for what is going on. Sorry, Oblivion speechcraft minigame.

2) Must not make the skill it is associated with meaningless, yet should provide some opportunity for growth of player skill.

3) Must be fun after the 1000th time you play it.


Still, I can see a place for minigames, sometimes. For example, rather than a boring slider, haggling could be simulated by something similar to blackjack -- you start with a neutral level of price advantage. If you choose to push, your advantage increases by a random number within a specified range. However, if it increases beyond a certain level (the player has only partial knowledge of this level), the shopkeeper gets ticked and resets the game, and drops the threshold, which makes it easier to fail and limits the maximum advantage you can gain. Three strikes, and he refuses to trade with you again until his shop resets.It's pretty snappy, engaging enough not to get boring, and sort of approximates the concept of pushing as hard as you can, but not so hard someone feels cheated. Skill could apply in lots of ways -- raising the threshold, giving you a more precise idea of where it lies, occasionally giving you a second chance when you would otherwise have lost, etc.

I make a point in Oblivion always to get the skeleton key ASAP just to skip the lock picking minigame.

I like that there's minigame before not having one. I just think the minigame needs to be less frustrating and that the lockpicking skill actually does something other than make the minigame a bit easier.

For me, the thing that matters is how well the mini game actually depicts the activity it's supposed to represent. Lock picking wasn't bad, it conveyed the idea of moving tumblers in a lock into place (although, I liked more what I've seen of Fallout's lock picking). Speech craft was a mess; it didn't make sense how throwing a constant schizophrenic stream of jokes, insults, and complements at someone was supposed to accomplish anything, except perhaps convincing people you were crazy.

So yeah, keep mini games, just make them make sense.

@perilisk

I definitely agree with all three design constraints. (The Oblivion speechcraft game was like playing tetris to open doors).

So I guess the extended list should look something like:
Lock-picking, Speechcraft, Alchemy, Armourer, Mercantile

What about pick-pocketing? That could be an easily made mini-game (trying to move slowly but within a time-limit). I guess sneaking already covers that but it might be fun.

I think that most of them should be 'ignorable' (eg you can use character skill alone).

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As an aside, I felt the main problem with Security was the fact that lock-picks were weightless... I mean the whole "I just carry 50 of the things" sort of evaporates when they weigh 0.2 each or something. Who wants to carry 25 pounds of lock-picks? Armourer would have had the same problem if hammers were weightless.

I prefer the lockpick in the new Fallout games. That works well. I'm not exactly complaining about the repair system in Oblivion, but it would nice if you had to actually have materials to repair armor instead of just a magic hammer. Maybe it could be somewhat like a cross between Fallout 3/New Vegas and Two Worlds 2. You could break down extra weapons/armor into materials like Steel or Glass and use those materials to repair your armor with. Ii just think that would make sense. That Speech game absolutely need to go though.

I'm fine with mini games as long as the make sense. As it's been pointed out Oblivion's speechcraft mini game was strange to say the least.
And the lockpicking was broken in the sense of once you get the skeleton key or enough lock picks all you have to do is tap "auto-attempt" a few times and bam. Done. I''d like to see something built off of Fallout 3's lockpicking system. Or something brand new!

Awful: Secret number checks are my thing.
At least the pickpocket can be run in semi automatic. The interface (on PC) still svcks since I can't control my mouse quick enough. Being forced to play the speechcraft one doesn't help on my attitude either. Some kind of random system for that as well would be nice, where it gradually homes in on the best answers, depending on skill level, would have been my suggestion. If I was forced into some minigame with alchemy I would quit playing. It has more than enough "minigame" already, since harvesting is based on my memory of what everything does instead of my characters memory That being said, my own memory is impossible to ignore when my next character stacks on up ingredients he doesn't yet know the later effects of.

Trying to figure out any very good alternatives I haven't succeeded with either, so...

Speechcraft in Oblivion was an abstract of general conversation; it served its purpose well (but was a little too simple). I don't mind sensible minigames in RPGs
(after all... combat itself is a minigame).

** On the subject of the lockpicking game though... I was annoyed that the game puts the player behind the pick instead of the PC (the one with the Lock Pick Skill).
In adventure games this lock pick task would be fine, but in an RPG, it is the PC that needs to pick the lock. I did not like that the Player could suss the pattern to the game and effectively bypass the PC's lack of skill.

I wouldnt mind minigames as long as I had the choice of doing it automatically for when I get bored of it.

Totally forgot about that one. As bizzare and embarassing as it sounds, 11 years back I used to play this HTML game called neopets. They had little shops controlled by an algorithm that basically haggled the price with you. The idea was like Morrowind/Oblivions where you'd never initially what you were asking for in terms of selling, and in terms of buying you'd never be able to get it at a cheaper price...but the potential to haggle was there.

You'd type in a price (or in our case a slider) and they'd counter offer..which isn't exactly meeting you halfway, but its still the computers way of fluctuating the price. You can imagine that there was a bit of text involved so my thoughts are, that they're counter offer comes up on screen as text, and then a generic line like "and not a coin more" or "and thats my final offer" come up to give it that modern and immersive feel.

Not a fan at all. Morrowind had it right, it just needed better animations for failure/breakage. The mini games are really really silly and detract from the experience.

I support minigames, but they need to be done right. RNG just seems like an excuse for a time where they couldn't have you perform the tasks you were trying to do. Lockpicking and Speechcraft were just not very fun.

I'd like some crafting minigames really.

Speechcraft Minigame: Hated it. Made the speechcraft skill 80% useless. Removal of 'Taunt' option also marginalized its usefulness. For TES 5, I hope it's back to 100% character stat checks.

Lockpick Minigame: Reduced lockpick to about 90% player skill, only assisting the player by lessening the penalty for failure. Fallout 3's was perfect however; lockpicking was player skill, but stats determined if your character could even try it. Oblivion minigame with statcheck for ability to try lock=perfect. Suggested incentive to get Skeleton Key: Allows picking of 'Key Only' locks at 100 Security skill, which have seven tumblers and failure resets all tumblers. Hard, but makes it feasible to get around stuff if you're good.

Traps: Minigame should be different than lockpicking, but not sure what yet. Perhaps something along the lines of the lockpicking game, but you probe different spots on the lock and get sounds. A certain tone range is 'safe' to click. Failure results in trap going off to a minor degree but not disarming. Allow 'screw it' option of taking full brunt of trap, though, like in Morrowind.

Armorer: Leave it as it is. Doesn't need a minigame.

Block: Yes, it's a minigame of sorts, to me. It's dependent on player skill, whereas Morrowind was 100% statcheck. However, Oblivion's balance of statcheck for effectiveness of block and player timing for actual blocking was almost perfect to me. Doesn't need to be changed much. However, weapon blocking should be 50/50 on the statcheck between the weapon skill of the held weapon and player's block skill. And for godsakes, you shouldn't be able to block a warhammer with a dagger no matter how good you are. You'd break your damn wrist or drop the dagger. Which should happen, by the way, if you're silly enough to try it. Instant disarm, and if enemy strength is more than 10 beyond your own, you should get your wrist crippled if that carries from Fallout.

Alchemy: Could be fun to have a minigame, and the extra time spent would reward you. If you fail, you risk losing the ingredients for nothing if your skill is too low. Higher skill failures result more often in a weakish potion. Perfection in the game gets you an extra vial of the best kind of potion for your level. Perhaps have the option of toggling this one on or off.

Minigames do not belong in an RPG, period. Any RPG. An RPG is supposed to be about the character's stats that you are playing, not you as an individual being good or bad at playing some minigame or being able to flick a stick a certain way to do something.

The persusion minigame and the lock picking minigame in Oblivion were a joke and a disaster as you didn't need stats in either one to use them, just you being able to maniuplate the system. The combat was better than Morrowind but I wouldn't call that a minigame, it was a game mechanic as the stats you had determined how much damage you did and you stats directly affected your character as someone with low combat stats would never be able to defeat high level characters.

I guess it depends on your definition of minigames. In any case, your character stats need to be what counts the most, not your skill with controller.