Which Daedric Prince will claim the Dovahkiin's soul? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:54 pm

That's your opinion. There's no official lore on Skyrim events yet, since we won't get that until the next game.
If we can use Oblivion as any sort of comparison, it's likely that the Dragonborn of lore in the future games will have done EVERYTHING they possibly can. Maybe even small little things that seemed to mean nothing, will have a small easter egg in the future games.
Right now, we have nothing but speculation. So you shouldn't use absolutes like "Lore wise, the DB didn't..". It should be "I think, lore wise, the DB didn't.."

Excellent point. Nothing is set in stone yet. We still have some more things to look forward to I think!

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:53 am

That's your opinion. There's no official lore on Skyrim events yet, since we won't get that until the next game.
If we can use Oblivion as any sort of comparison, it's likely that the Dragonborn of lore in the future games will have done EVERYTHING they possibly can. Maybe even small little things that seemed to mean nothing, will have a small easter egg in the future games.
Right now, we have nothing but speculation. So you shouldn't use absolutes like "Lore wise, the DB didn't..". It should be "I think, lore wise, the DB didn't.."

Where are you getting this? Nothing implies COC did everything.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:23 am

So, honest question here, not trying to perpetuate an argument, but where exactly was it ever stated or confirmed that the Champion of Cyrodiil ever did anything more than close the oblivion gates and mantle Sheogorath? I've been playing Skyrim well over 500+ hours and I've never seen so much as a hint that the CoC was involved in any of the optional factions. In fact, Cicero's journals seem to indicate the contrary, beings that it is highly implied that Cicero was the adoring fan, and that Cicero KILLED the champion of the Arena.

I'd just like some reference material is all, please.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:43 am

Where are you getting this? Nothing implies COC did everything.

who else would have done it? only one prisoner escaped, its fine if you don't want your coc to have done anything, but generic coc probably did

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:12 pm

So, honest question here, not trying to perpetuate an argument, but where exactly was it ever stated or confirmed that the Champion of Cyrodiil ever did anything more than close the oblivion gates and mantle Sheogorath? I've been playing Skyrim well over 500+ hours and I've never seen so much as a hint that the CoC was involved in any of the optional factions. In fact, Cicero's journals seem to indicate the contrary, beings that it is highly implied that Cicero was the adoring fan, and that Cicero KILLED the champion of the Arena.

I'd just like some reference material is all, please. :smile:

cicero is way too far in time to have killed the coc as arena champ

edit:it was a newer champion

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:03 am

Where are you getting this? Nothing implies COC did everything.

"Martin is my favorite Dragonborn! You know, I was there for that affair... Great times! Butterflies, a severed head, a fox, and the cheese to die for!" (Or something like that).

Basicly. CoC = Sheogorath and during the conversation between Skyrim's Sheogorath and the Crazy Pela Emperor, he said something like that. The severed head = Dark Brotherhood. The Fox = Thieves Guild. Etc.

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:15 pm

cicero is way to far in time to have killed the coc as arena champ

Cicero is also one of the higher ups of the Dark Brotherhood. I don't think it's too far fetched to think he has some kind of secret to the prolonging of his life. He could very well be a vampire for all we know. Or some kind of pact with a Daedra of some sort. It's the Elder Scrolls we're talking about here, it's not like we can use logic as a basis for any argument when we're discussing a game of not only fiction but FANTASY fiction, in which the lore itself provides many different ways for Man and Mer to live far longer than they were ever meant to. Hell look at Dragonborn, we now have yet ANOTHER method that people can manage to stay alive.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:10 am

For one; I thought at first that Cicero was the adoring fan too. Then quickly realize that A. They're different races.. B. They're about an entire ERA apart. Unless Cicero has a very good surgeon, they're not the same guy.
That and Cicero wouldn't have killed the Listener..

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:12 am

Cicero is also one of the higher ups of the Dark Brotherhood. I don't think it's too far fetched to think he has some kind of secret to the prolonging of his life. He could very well be a vampire for all we know. Or some kind of pact with a Daedra of some sort. It's the Elder Scrolls we're talking about here, it's not like we can use logic as a basis for any argument when we're discussing a game of not only fiction but FANTASY fiction, in which the lore itself provides many different ways for Man and Mer to live far longer than they were ever meant to. Hell look at Dragonborn, we now have yet ANOTHER method that people can manage to stay alive.

shush, thats way to convoluted and you know it. The alt is much simpler and doesn't give any reason to doubt it, plus cicero would have sung the listener teh song of how to stay immortal if such a thing were true :biggrin:

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:01 am

Where are you getting the idea that the dragonborn is talos?

The main quest and civil war quests plus http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy-0. In the Elder Scrolls world by re-enacting mythic patterns you become that mythic pattern. When Tullius, Ulfric, Galmar/Rikke and the Dragonborn replayed the pieces of the Talos puzzle they became him. It's pretty simple, really.

There's also a fair chance that he's Akatosh by replaying that same group of Rebel/Ruling King/Witness/Wildcard with Paarthurnax, Odahviing Alduin and him/herself. Since Talos is Lorkhan and Lorkhan is Akatosh since Akatosh murdered him. Seriously, that last bit's been established like three games ago.

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:42 pm

Well, come to think of it.
Can someone just see if there are dates in Cicero's journal entries? That'd be... a lot simpler.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:34 pm

"Martin is my favorite Dragonborn! You know, I was there for that affair... Great times! Butterflies, a severed head, a fox, and the cheese to die for!" (Or something like that).

Basicly. CoC = Sheogorath and during the conversation between Skyrim's Sheogorath and the Crazy Pela Emperor, he said something like that. The severed head = Dark Brotherhood. The Fox = Thieves Guild. Etc.

Doesn't mean he did those things. I like to think that the COC became Sheogorath, he didn't canonically do these things though, that's what I'm saying. Even if he DID do the DB/TG quest line, nothing implies that he did the Fighters Guild or Mages Guild.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:00 am

My character is not bound to any foul Daedric Prince, but is in covenant with the Nine, the true masters of Nirn!

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:48 pm

For one; I thought at first that Cicero was the adoring fan too. Then quickly realize that A. They're different races.. B. They're about an entire ERA apart. Unless Cicero has a very good surgeon, they're not the same guy.
That and Cicero wouldn't have killed the Listener..

I don't recall ever saying he killed the listener...

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:23 am

The main quest and civil war quests plus http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arcturian-heresy-0. In the Elder Scrolls world by re-enacting mythic patterns you become that mythic pattern. When Tullius, Ulfric, Galmar/Rikke and the Dragonborn replayed the pieces of the Talos puzzle they became him. It's pretty simple, really.

There's also a fair chance that he's Akatosh by replaying that same group of Rebel/Ruling King/Witness/Wildcard with Paarthurnax, Odahviing Alduin and him/herself. Since Talos is Lorkhan and Lorkhan is Akatosh since Akatosh murdered him. Seriously, that last bit's been established like three games ago.

We don't know if he mantled Talos because of one enantiomorphic event. Also, Talos isn't really Akatosh.. because Talos isn't really Lorkhan. Talos is Lorkhan's replacement while Akatosh is the tails to Lorkhans head. At least that's how I understand it.

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:14 pm

I don't recall ever saying he killed the listener...

Exactly. The Listener = the Champion. In Oblivion, anyway.
So, if he were to be trying to kill our pc in Oblivion, he'd be trying to kill his own Listener as well. And considering Cicero's disposition toward the Listener, I just... really doubt that. Especially since Lucien got dismembered and mutilated on a HUNCH.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:11 am

who else would have done it? only one prisoner escaped, its fine if you don't want your coc to have done anything, but generic coc probably did

What in the world are you talking about? What does the prisoner thing have to do with the fulfilment of guild quests? The Champion of Cyrodiil helped end the Oblivion crisis, might have restored the Knights of the Nine and might have become Sheogorath. He probably did not do any other questlines that we find in the game, but if you want him to, then he did. Canonically, we do not know.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:48 am

Where are you getting this? Nothing implies COC did everything.

Nowhere is it implied that everything is canon, but nowhere is it disproven. It is however, suggested that he joined the DarkBrohood, Thieves Guild, and other stuff that I can't remember. Though, i use the word suggested loosely.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:15 am

Exactly. The Listener = the Champion. In Oblivion, anyway.
So, if he were to be trying to kill our pc in Oblivion, he'd be trying to kill his own Listener as well. And considering Cicero's disposition toward the Listener, I just... really doubt that. Especially since Lucien got dismembered and mutilated on a HUNCH.

When I noted that Cicero's journal stated that he killed the champion, that was meant to be evidence to the idea that the CoC never became the Champion of the Arena, as it is very much apparent that the CoC is still alive and mantling Sheogorath. Never implying that Cicero would have killed the Listener, nor implying that the CoC was ever the listener...

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:17 pm

Exactly. The Listener = the Champion. In Oblivion, anyway.

No

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:33 am

Doesn't mean he did those things. I like to think that the COC became Sheogorath, he didn't canonically do these things though, that's what I'm saying. Even if he DID do the DB/TG quest line, nothing implies that he did the Fighters Guild or Mages Guild.

Only person who saw that head is the one who became the Listener...

» Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:48 pm

Nowhere is it implied that everything is canon, but nowhere is it disproven. It is however, suggested that he joined the DarkBrohood, Thieves Guild, and other stuff that I can't remember. Though, i use the word suggested loosely.

It's suggested, but I think this was Beth's way of saying "that character you were in Oblivion is this guy".. not necessarily implying that the Champion was nefarious.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:44 am

We don't know if he mantled Talos because of one enantiomorphic event. Also, Talos isn't really Akatosh.. because Talos isn't really Lorkhan. Talos is Lorkhan's replacement while Akatosh is the tails to Lorkhans head. At least that's how I understand it.

Being Lorkhan's replacement makes him Lorkhan, he walked like Lorkhan until the Missing God walked like him. And the tails and the head are still just the same hunk of metal that has been artificially given an individuated form by people. It's like if an Ouroboros had two bodies instead of one and one of them was a humanoid elf-killing, world-making, divinity-profaning machine with a massive dong instead of a dragon.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:17 am

Let's keep on the main topic here.

» Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:27 am

How in Oblivion does Cicero kill'd the champion from the 4th game? That makes NO SENSE WHAT* SO EVER!

Also, last I check. There was dates in his journal and all were between 4E Y150 - 4E Y201*