All the Princes are evil to varying degrees. ( We can just skip the age old "deadra can't be evil because it's their nature and/or are beyond mortal morality" discussion. Whether it's fair to call them evil or not, they certainly engage in very concrete and measurable actions with the mortal races, and these are usually pretty unsubjectively destructive.) But if you had to choose just a single one among them to be the greatest foe of Tamriel, who gets the dishonorable prize? Which one would you banish forever to make Nirn a safer place to live?

For me, I have to go with Dagon. He has the greatest desire to actually destroy the world and has come to closest to doing so. On the large scale, he has been the most destructive, and the world would be better off if we could just throw him and his minions into the outer realms.

On smaller, more personal levels, I pick Vaermina as most wicked of Princes. The master of torture is not a fun gal to hang with. She may not end the world like Dagon but in some ways being caught in her devices is even worse.

What about you? list your most detested Prince and reason.

The King of [censored].=The King of Forced sixual Intercourse aka.Molag Bal

Yep. I expect Molag Bal to be a popular choice in this thread, but when you think about it, plenty of other princes can be just as terrible

Molag Bal, whose sphere is the subjugation of others for its own sake, stands for everything I oppose, and gets my vote.

Mehrunes Dagon is unpleasant to be sure, but he is crude and petty and I do not find his sphere of Destruction as deeply sickening as Molag's. I will concede, however, that Dagon was the driving force behind many more large-scale disasters than Molag.

Sheogorath cannot be considered evil. I know you said to skip the whole 'daedra can't be evil' bit, but the Madgod must be chaotic, and therefore inconsistent in his morality.

I do not know enough of Namira to pass judgement.

Mephala the Webspinner is considered by the Dunmer to be one of the Good Daedra. While her methods are of dubious morality, and her motives unclear, she is not a significant threat, or truly evil.

Vaermina, whose sphere is dreams and nightmares. Dreams are a vital part of the mortal mind; nightmares a training ground where one prepares for future problems. Vaermina is not evil.

Boethiah is another one of the Good Daedra according to the Tribunal faith. She is definitely harsh and cruel, but evil? nah, don't think so.

Clavicus Vile is a confidence trickster, plain and simple. I wouldn't go so far as to call that evil.

Sangune's sphere is the indulgence of pleasure, something only harmful in excess. As Daedra go, he's little more than a nuisance.

Hircine's sphere of sport for the sake of adrenaline is questionable, but not truly evil.

Again, I cannot judge Meridia for lack of knowledge, but she annoys me.

Ditto for Peryite.

Malacath is a downtrodden outcast, and perhaps the least evil of all the Princes.

Nocturnal is yet another I know too little of. Her patronage of the Thieves' Guild doesn't speak too well of her, of course.

Azura is a [censored]. She's petty, manipulative, and selfish. She acts nice, but is nearly as evil as Dagon (just in a different way).

The Wretched Abyss. You're the only person I've seen actually call Herma-Mora by that name. He is the hardest for me to judge in terms of morality, because I, like him, believe knowledge to be power and ignorance to be crippling weakness. However, his methods of obtaining knowledge can border on obscene. Intellectual betterment is an admirable goal, worth going to great lengths to achieve, but at what point are the means no longer justified?

I concur!

Vaermina is most certainly evil, by her own admission even. Look at her Daggerfall quest Dialogue:

"A very wise (player's race) once said that power corrupts, and absolute power is absolutely fabulous. That's why I am going to help you. Now, I'm sure you have certain moral problems with murdering an innocent who never hurt you in any way. But you'll do it to win my Skull of Corruption, yes?"

And if you refuse:

"No? Why ... you ... contemptible, sniveling, virtuous, sterling piece of goblin snot! I'm not going waste my precious time with anyone so poisonously moral."

At the end of your quest, her follower greets you thusly:

"o, did the lich cough up a cloud of dust when it died? (worshipper's name) here, (player's first name). Vaernima will be so pleased with the news. I hope you won't mind if I embellish a little about some horrible outrageous sins you commited in your journey. Here is The Skull of Corruption. Use it whenever you want a target to be faced with their darkest side. Farewell, (player's first name), but do bad."

Vaermina is explicitly condemning good morals here. And "Farewell, but do bad" is my favorite quote from the game for its bluntness and wordplay

BTW, I totally agree with you here. If you refuse her quest in Daggerfall she hilariously says this:

"No! You're supposed to say yes! You're supposed to say: Yes, beautiful Azura, I would gladly murder at the snap of your ivory fingers. Boor! Bigot! Barbarian! Now, I must go before I forget that I am a lady and say something that I'll regret."

So much for the benevolence of Azura.......

Molag Bal gets my vote.



Utterly off topic, did you try registering that name on the new forums?


http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1588608-bethesdanet-account-creation-soft-launch-coming-today/

I am back, hopefully with a sufficiently Latin username. My account was banned for having a Japanese username.unfortunately my computer was set to remember me, and I have lost all permissions.Even the permission to log out, which leaves me locked on an error page. Now I am stuck on my phone. Any help?

Delete the cookies and cache of your browser so that your connection infos disappear and contact a moderator so that he fixes your other account. Welcome Raou!

Mephala. Her nastiness level really shot up for me with Skyrim. I mean, a weapon that grows in strength when you use it to eviscerate people who like and trust you? Probably the most evil weapon I've come across.

Molag Bal, natch.

But the Triad of "Good" Daedra to the Dunmer? Anything but.

Azura? Because of the actions of three, she threw a temper tantrum and marred all Chimer with ashen skin and red eyes.

Mephala? Her token feeds off betrayal, and she lives for pulling close-knit bonds apart.

Boethiah? How is "I am alive because that one is dead" a good thing? Why must someone else die to prove you are alive? Boethiah also cursed an entire section of elves to a marred appearance just like Azura.

To worship any prince is suicidal madness. Talk with them, sure. Make a deal with them... read the fine print CAREFULLY. Defraud them if you're feeling really gutsy. But to worship them? Mortals are toys to them. And not the kinds that they care to maintain.

Of the horrible things Azura has done, that's easily the least horrible. The worst would be the other half of that punishment, orchestrating a sequence of events that she knew would result in widespread death and destruction, effectively planning the genocide of the Dunmer and conning some poor outlander to do her dirty work so that her hands would be clean. Azura may have good PR but she is terrifying when her actions are examined more closely. She doesn't get my vote, though, since her aim is power. Molag Bal does get my vote because he doesn't care about personal power and simply wants to make people suffer for the sake of it. Cruelty for a reason, no matter how bad that reason is, is one thing, but cruelty for the sake of cruelty is something else entirely.

I find most of the Daedra pretty distasteful, but Bal is definitely at the top of that list. Dagon may embody death and destruction, but Bal is worse because he's more concerned with making people suffer and corrupting them. How anybody can look at the Daedra, then the Nine Divines, and decide to throw their hat in with the Princes is beyond me. Sure, the Divines aren't as flashy with how they do things, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

I know I'm probably insane (no pun intended) for thinking this, but I find Sheogorath and Hircine to be the least evil of the Daedra. One is the embodiment of madness, which is neither good nor evil, strictly speaking, and the latter possesses a sense of fair play that I find oddly refreshing from a Daedra.

Madness is not neutral. Its a bad thing. And forcing madness on others is no less cruel than Molag Bal's torture. What actual good has Sheo done? Throwing a moon at Vvanderfell, killing thousands? Disembowling a woman to make a flute? Afflicting a nation with seizures? Turning people to cheese for the lols? It seems people think he's alright because he's funny, but he is really a homocidal maniac.

Sheo is also the god of creativity and a patron of artists.

Dibella a is a much better patron for the arts.

But what sort of creativity?That of a madman who gets a good result sometimes but is otherwise deranged and whos art is bascially nonsensical?He created music instruments by ripping someones body to pieces that's the sort of creativity that he represents.

-

Same with Sanguine quite a few people seem to think he is just the Deadra of having some fun party.His sphere is everything inclued in Debauchery and Hedonism that can be some really dark stuff.

That's nature,the strong live the weak die.I can see how the Chimer and later Dunmer living in a harsh land would value that sort of thinking.The orcs ,ironically looking at their creation(or not), are the same only the strong breed and rule .The weak die.

How is Azura responsible for Dagoth Ur's actions? Dagoth Ur is responsible for the widespread death and destruction caused by the centuries of the Blight and Corprus diseases, and the later operations of the Sixth House. Azura was not responsible for Red Year, that was Vivec's ego letting him leave Lie Rock above the island as a loaded gun literally pointing at the Dunmer. Severing the Tribunal from the heart was a necessary act because of what Dagoth Ur was going to do, and Vivec even acknowledged this. And still, Azura tried to warn people away from Morrowind in the lead up to Red Year, but only a few would listen because many were still holding out in the vain hope of the Tribunal's return.

Sheo threw it, Vivec left it like an idiot, and Azura's agent caused it to complete it's fall. The Blight was Dagoth Ur's fault, no doubt. However, it's debatable how much of what Dagoth Ur did is something he would have done if Azura hadn't seeded the Nerevarine prophecy. Everything Dagoth Ur does once the game starts is specifically to goad you into confronting him. How much of what he's done over the millennia has been prompted by that prophecy? He takes control of the Heart, which also powers the Tribunal, and then it just happens to be Azura's champion who destroys it, taking the trio who betrayed her along with it? That seems kind of suspicious to me.

Azura also only sent warning to her most devout followers and they didn't tell anyone else. Azura doesn't require that you worship her to be able to speak to you, so why didn't she warn any one else? It doesn't seem like a coincidence that the vast majority of surviving Dunmer are devout Azura worshipers, despite Azura not being a subject of worship (but rather respect) by the majority of them just a few years prior. Azura is even the prime figure of worship now when the last time they worshiped the Daedra it was Boethiah.

Did Azura do everything that lead to the Red Year? No, but she certainly made the most of it and helped to speed it along.

Interestingly, Dagoth's Ascended Sleepers aren't big Azura fans, and some even think that the Nerevarine is a simple pawn.

Its safe to assume that the Sixth House, and those running it are very aware of Azura's machinations on some level. Unfortunately, Dagoth Ur was a little more concerned with theatrics and trying to figure out if the Nerevarine was Nerevar-Reborn or not.

OT, all Princes can be equally vile and depraved when prompted. Sort of comes with the territory, though some are far more overt then others. Pulling in the opposite direction though, you could construe more positive aspects with them depending on the angle you're working with.

Dagoth Ur is completely responsible for his own actions. Nerevar entrusted the tools to him, and despite promising not to use them, he did. And then Nerevar got murdered by the Tribunal so they could keep their power, instead of ending it way back then. Eventually, Dagoth Ur got to the point where he could prevent the Tribunal from being able to replenish their power, so the only way to stop him was to sever their connections to the heart. Irrespective of any Nerevarine prophecy, once Dagoth Ur established himself as a threat against the Tribunal for what they did, the enchantments on the heart had to go, and with it, Vivec's power to hold up Lie Rock. Azura had no hand in driving these events between the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur.

The things Dagoth Ur and the Sixth House does toward you are to force a confrontation between you and him. But Dagoth Ur's plans as a whole were much bigger than you. He was setting up to enslave the world, to "free" the Dunmer and take down the false gods. You were only relevant to him in that you were a reincarnation of an old friend he still had some beef with.

Vivec is more than merely "an idiot" for leaving it up there. He left it there with the expressed purpose of it crashing down one day when the Dunmer no longer loved him. So really, even if the Dagoth Ur and Nerevarine business never happened, any other event that caused the Dunmer to lose their love for Vivec would've also lead to Red Year (well, kind of, since Red Year was also punctuated by the recent devastation of the Oblivion Crisis, which wasn't Azura's doing either). Then the Dunmer would have the wrath of Vivec to deal with.

Who says she didn't try to warn anyone else? Just because her followers were the only ones to act doesn't mean she only tried to save her followers (after all, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink). Since the Dunmer people turned their collective backs on Azura thousands of years ago in favor of the Tribunal, they wouldn't then turn around and listen to what she has to say. Especially since its the Dunmer's "love" for Vivec that makes him leave Lie Rock up there... if there was a threat of it falling, obviously that means people need to put more faith in Vivec and "love" him more, rather than turn away more and listen to the one he supplanted.

Besides, it's not like the Dunmer population was eradicated. There could very well be pockets of other people that escaped thanks to an unexpected message from Azura. Just because they didn't then go build a large statue on the top of a mountain in Skyrim doesn't mean they don't exist.

Azura didn't do anything any right-minded person wouldn't have done, with respect to sending the Nerevarine to defeat Dagoth Ur. And actually, one could make the argument that Azura wasn't responsible for anything you did at all, but was only taking credit for what you managed to accomplish.

This is how I have come to view Azura, personally. I doubt that she even caused the Chimer to become the Dunmer. No, I suspect the blame for that lies solely on the ever-beating god organ that has a penchant for altering entire races when tampered with...

Honestly, I sincerely doubt that she has done half the things people accuse her of, much less caused a chain of events that resulted in the fall of the Tribunal and the Red Year. I honestly don't think she is that smart.

What is "strong"? What is "weak"? Social darwinism is a farce that flies in the face of how natural selection really works. The strength of a group is not in optimization but diversity. What is "weak" in one situation might be "strong" in another.

And the context of that line is actually "I am a good little minion that will murder on a whim because my daedra lord commands me." Why did the Boethiah worshipper have to attack the Player? To quote Agent J, "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin'!"

Lol, wow, Bal by a landslide! Didn't see that coming

He's the worst.