Well then.. you are horribly wrong! :nuke:

:nuke: :nuke: USA :nuke: :nuke:
:nuke: :nuke: CHINA :nuke: :nuke:
both go :thumbsdown:

Had to say it =) "Won cause it won", well you can always wish, but it's just like sayin "humans have 8 arms" or something.. same true
I'm outta this topic!!

It's simple kid. You shoot nukes at me, I shoot them back at you. Both of our nuclear arsenals knock one another out, so neither of us can retaliate against each other; so neither of us win. Simple as that. China nuked US, and US nuked China. Who won? Neither of them. The only reason you think the US won is because they're is still life in the US, and the Enclave shadow government is around. Well for all we know, the same thing is happening in China? They have their own secret shadow government that has yet to be show in any FO game, or even mentioned in anything, etc.

So you're thought is incorrect because we know nothing of what happened to China after the bombs fell. And you can't declare a winner in anything, until the dust settles and reveals the outcome of either side. You can't call victory when there's no one else around to hear it.

Even if one side actually won (neither did), it wouldn't matter. Would a ghoulified, half-dead crowd of US citizens be having a "Yay we won!" party? I SEZ NOPE!

In the aftermath of the Nuclear hellfire I think people have more things to worry about than counting their victories. For all we know more Chinese survived than the Americans, but the entire process of determining a winner would be redundant to anyone with the capabilities to do so.
The Enclave are more concerned with solidifying their control over the US once more.
The Brotherhood of Steel care more for technology rather than history and in turn are busy with a covert war against the Enclave and purging Super Mutants.
The rest of the people with the means to do so would rather use those means to make themselves wealthy and prominent amongst the wastes, why waste time on ancient history? Make history!

I wouldn't exactly call it "covert", as examples in the FO games, wastelanders do know about the equal hatred between the two. I don't think there is any hiding it. But the rest I understand and agree with you on.

*Shrugs* Brotherhood to me just seemed elusive and secretive, but I see your point.

If you count the cadre of generals, premiers, and presidents trapped in their C.O.G. bunkers eating canned primed rib and crapping in chemical toilets for 6 months after the bombs dropped, I guess whoever crammed the most VIPs in their shelter. The rest of humanity would be FUBAR! The whole point of nuclear war is the living would most likely envy the dead. Case in point, Threads by the BBC or The Day After if you love kampfy 80's best-case cheese.

I am sure the Enclave would say they won the Great War. They just now have to win the peace and rebuild America they way they want it. They just have to get rid of all the damned Mutations ie: everyone not Enclave

I want the Fallout after New Vegas to be set in another country, preferably China or Europe.

Well the PRC is a glowing crater, following the "Great War". It would be interesting to walk through Checkpoint Charlie and see the the Fallout equivalent of East and West Berlin.

M.A.D. means no one wins

It's actually M.AT.D.

Mutually Assured Temporary Destruction...

The only winning move is not to play.

The only winning move is to strike before the enemy realizes what's happening

But, honestly, no one won since no surrenders have been signed, and both countries ceased to exist as nations. The Enclave, for one, is more a political organization than a government.

And even then, I find the bunch of the settlements in the west coast to be legitimate governmental organizations, like the NCR for example, than the Enclave.

The power vacuum in Fallout is rather unrealistic though. Of course, we don't know what it's like to have earth nuked, but I strongly believe that the US government wouldn't just duck and cover for 100 years and wait for the dust to fall. Unless, of course, Pentagon's main source of strategic knowledge was Dr. Stranglove.
Even more so with Raven Rock now in Fallout universe.. It is, in real life too, planned to be "Pentagon 2" where the good Prez can continue his daily routine even in the worst of all scenarios.

But yes, as much as I like the Enclave, it abandoned its people and the people abandoned it and thus it isn't legimate. I don't think it's any better in China neither. No matter what kind of a brutal and authoritarian system you have, the harder your system falls when something terrible happens.

The USA government retreated to the The Poseidon Energy Oil Rig during the great war and they stayed there to work on their plans to kill all mutations. The Enclave was a big part of the USA government after the bombs fell. If anything what was left of the USA government became puppets of the Enclave. If you take in account Fallout Tactics with Vault Zero and I do the rest of the USA government like senators and congressmen went to Vault Zero. Vault Zero had a problem with the "calculator" and did not start working again till what was left of the Masters super Mutant army found it and had awoken the "calculator." Everyone inside vault Zero was killed or became severely brain damaged. So that is why the USA government is a big no show in the Fallout wasteland.

Many in the government must have been killed during the war not everyone could take shelter before the bombs fell if they had warning some had to stay and run things. Or just did not get to Vault Zero or anyother shelter in time.

I completely agree

Not necessarily true. The Fallout games have made a point of not revealing who launched the first nuke

America.

In Fallout 2, President Richardson clearly stated that the PRC launched first!

Well, no President would admit he fired first.........not even Clinton.

There is no real confirmation on who launched first and i doubt that there will ever be one.

And what does it matter in the end ? Such things were solely important to a world that ceased existing 200 years ago.

Fallout 3 put a bit too much of reference to the past into the game anyway.

Maybe the Washington location with all its museums and memorials is a explantion for why the people there keep a certain connection to the past with so much knowledge. But the west coast in F1 and F2 gives a rat's ass about the USA and China.

USA is nothing more than three meaningless letters to the people there. Most of them never heard of it anyway. Afterall ,what do they care ? They have their own factions and governments now. The past is the past and most dont have access to historic files anway. Who cares what argument your great great grandfather had with someone else.

Except for the Enclave, the USA aswell as China and propably the majority of countries from back in the days are long dead and buried since two centuries.
Nothing but dinosaur bones remains of them. The Enclave still holds to the past and dreams the fruitless dream of reversing everything back to where it once was.

Just like there is now a Italy in place of what was once the heart of a dozen times bigger Roman Empire. 2000 years ago now and nothing left except what you can see in museums today. Does Britain sue Italy for Roman occupation ? Not really. What does it still matter after so much time right ? Wouldn't it be rediculous to start a argument about that ?

The Brotherhood knows about history but only cares for preserving and rediscovering technology rather than the old world itself. They kept no traditions of their U.S Army roots and replaced it with a medieval knighthood tradition propably as their founder was a deserter anyway.

I completely agree with this. I think there would have been no debate as to who won seeing as though humanity was nearly wiped out. After 200+ years, hardly anyone would know of how the Earth came to be in such a desolate state apart from Ghouls that were present during the Great War and a few current wastelanders that have read or heard about it. The everyday struggle to simply survive surely takes priority over knowing who won. Another fact is that no actual organised nation that was involved with the Great War exists anymore. The current Enclave is just a remnant of a shadow goverment that currently has no control over the country. Overall, no definable "winner" can ever be recognised, and never will be.

I'd say it's something like that, who wins and who loses is only relevant when there's still something worth winning. When both sides have been blown back to the stone age (presumably, anyway. We don't really no what happened to China.) I'd say both sides lost.



But that doesn't mean it's true, after all, it would make the US government, and by extension, the Enclave, look bad if they were known to be the ones who started the nuclear war. Besides, he wasn't there to see who hit first, so he could have been mistaken about it.