Who Also Thinks that... : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:40 pm

Think about what he did. His motive for the White-Gold Treaty were to save the empire and its people! Stormcloaks might say he is a weak and spineless elven puppet....But he did what he had to to save the nords and the rest of the empire. He also sacrficed his good image and let his people view him as a traitor to sAve the people who are currently fighting against him, He also gets point's because of his brilliant Millatry mind.......Also rumors say that he wielded Goldbrand during the sack of the imperial city! These facts in my opinion atleast prove that the mede dynasty has proved itself worthy!

Spoiler

Also during the Db quest he faces his death so....Calmly.....Lesser man would plea and beg for mercy, He instead accepted his fate anD choose to embrace his death

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:47 am

I'm of the mind that Titus is... manipulating things (somewhat). Knowing that this is the guy who orchestrated the retaking of the Imperial City, among other things *wink* *wink*; I don't think that he can let the Thalmor walk all over him and let his Emper fall to ruin. I think he has some kind of ulterior motive behind the terms of the Concordat.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:20 pm

In Tekumel, upon the impaler's "high ride," honorable souls sing their death songs with thanksgiving. A man so acquainted with death should know death conceals nothing to fear. I'm glad he dies without fear. He was a good Emperor to succeed.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:05 pm

I'm of the mind that Titus is... manipulating things (somewhat). Knowing that this is the guy who orchestrated the retaking of the Imperial City, among other things *wink* *wink*; I don't think that he can let the Thalmor walk all over him and let his Emper fall to ruin. I think he has some kind of ulterior motive behind the terms of the Concordat.

No, Titus Mede retook the Imperial City. Titus Mede II wasn't born for another century, at least.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:35 am

Edit

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:18 am

No, Titus Mede retook the Imperial City. Titus Mede II wasn't born for another century, at least.

I think he means after the Dominion sacked it and took control of it, he launched a counter offensive and took it back despite being quite weakened, leading to the White-Gold Concordat. That was Titus II, being only 25 years ago.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:32 pm

I think he means after the Dominion sacked it and took control of it, he launched a counter offensive and took it back despite being quite weakened, leading to the White-Gold Concordat. That was Titus II, being only 25 years ago.

That's what I meant. Sorry about not adding the 'II'.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:20 am

Doesn't really seem like he's that good.
The guy wins one major battle, and fails to capitalize on it. Worse he even surrenders on the very terms that ignited the war.

Hammerfell shows us clearly that the Dominion was overextended and that perhaps Red Ring even destroyed the brunt of its forces. In a 5 year war, in which the Dominion only had to focus on a single province (as the Empire proper had long surrendered), they could not defeat the Redguard.
How then could the Dominion ever have hoped to take on the combined forces of Hammerfell, the very province we KNOW they couldn't handle, Skyrim, a huge source of military manpower, High Rock, Cyrodiil and assorted Orcs in a protracted war?

I don't know whether Titus Mede II was a coward or not, but he sure as hell wasn't a great commander or emperor.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:47 am

Keep in mind that people fight harder on their own soil. There are more too then. When it is the Empire versus the Dominion in Hammerfell they both have their legions. Limited in size. When it's Hammerfell versus the Dominion it's the entire province against a few legions. Desert tribes, local militia, armed bands, ordinary pesants, ect.

You can compare the effects to the time after the French Revolution. The levee an mass (conscription) allowed France to muster a much larger army then any other country which used professional soldiers. Thus they were able to go to war with the whole of Europe at the same time and come out ahead (no small thanks to Napoleon either).

In addition to that, because these are Hammerfell natives they can execute short attacks and disappear into the crowd or retreat into the desert. The Great War describes a few of such events.

You can compare this to the Spanish guerrero after the French Revolution. While they were unable to drive Napoleon out, they did tie up a large portion of the army. Similar to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan. While this does not grantee a victory it makes it harder for an occupying army to focus their forces and engage existing armies.

So essentially, once the Empire backed out it became an entirely different situation.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:33 am

The difference here is that the "Spanish Guerreros" did not simply tie down the enemy, but actually managed to drive out the "French", and the war in Cyrodiil was also a war on own terrain.

All the praise for Titus Mede II and especially his conduct during the war, basically comes from "The Great War". But that's a book written by an Imperial, who served under the Empire, and wrote for an Imperial public. It is not an objective source.

If we disregard all the embellishments, POV's, excuses, post factum justifications, speculations about the actual proceedings of the war in Hammerfell... then we have a commander that surrenders to an army that was later defeated by a fraction of the forces at his disposal.
That does not imply any genius, it implies the opposite even. Personally I think he's just a bad commander and emperor, but I'm willing to revise that should there be any objective information that shows the empire was truly lsot otherwise.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:36 am

The difference here is that the "Spanish Guerreros" did not simply tie down the enemy, but actually managed to drive out the "French", and the war in Cyrodiil was also a war on own terrain.

I believe that they had to pull out not only because of the Guerreros but also because the armies were needed elsewhere. I'd have to look that up.

But still the resistance in Hammerfell did eventually force the Aldmeri armies to retreat. In part because of the defeat of the forces in Cyrodiil.

All the praise for Titus Mede II and especially his conduct during the war, basically comes from "The Great War". But that's a book written by an Imperial, who served under the Empire, and wrote for an Imperial public. It is not an objective source.

Quite so.

If we disregard all the embellishments, POV's, excuses, post factum justifications, speculations about the actual proceedings of the war in Hammerfell... then we have a commander that surrenders to an army that was later defeated by a fraction of the forces at his disposal.
That does not imply any genius, it implies the opposite even. Personally I think he's just a bad commander and emperor, but I'm willing to revise that should there be any objective information that shows the empire was truly lsot otherwise.

I disagree with the assertion that the Aldmeri forces were defeated by a fraction of the Empires strength. Rather a fraction of the Aldmeri forces, those in Hammerfell were fought to standstill by a force that was both greater then the Legions and better adapted to fighting in Hammerfell.

Granted, it is impossible to qualify the exact strengths of forces involved. But when I read the Great War I got the impression that the Empire did not have the strenght it had in the past and had it's legions spread out in Tamriel.
The Thalmor focused all their focused on two parts and were able to overrun them. It's only when the Empire brings it's legions from Highrock, Hammerfell and Skyrim to Cyrodiil that they're able to turn the tide and defeat one part of the Aldmeri forces.

In the aftermath the Aldmer retreat from Hammerfell and are destroyed in Cyrodiil. The Empire itself is left with a few broken legions.

Now I don't think either side was able to continue. But the Empire will have to spread out it's legions again afterwards to maintain control of Skyrim and Highrock. The Thalmor, not so much. Would they attack now they'd be able to over run Cyrodiil again before those Legions could return.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:08 am

Mede and his army's objective was less ephemeral than "eradicating mankind." Everyone knew they would take the castle or die trying. Past mistakes were behind them all.

If you want to call this genius, by all means. If not, that's fine. Either way, a simple cut delivered the ends, and the old bastard died without fear of it. Maybe the hell awaiting him is easier than Tamriel's future.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:56 am

What is the Empire fighting for? Do they even know anymore?

The Aldmer know. They've known for a very long time.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:23 am

Survival at the Battle of the Red Ring.

We were talking about that, right?

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:49 am

Think about what he did. His motive for the White-Gold Treaty were to save the empire and its people! Stormcloaks might say he is a weak and spineless elven puppet....But he did what he had to to save the nords and the rest of the empire. He also sacrficed his good image and let his people view him as a traitor to sAve the people who are currently fighting against him, He also gets point's because of his brilliant Millatry mind.......Also rumors say that he wielded Goldbrand during the sack of the imperial city! These facts in my opinion atleast prove that the mede dynasty has proved itself worthy!

Spoiler

Also during the Db quest he faces his death so....Calmly.....Lesser man would plea and beg for mercy, He instead accepted his fate anD choose to embrace his death

Spoiler

The spoiler has me convinced that he's up to something. I doubt he would so willingly let his Empire go to hell in a handbasket if he didn't have a plan.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:41 am

He's totally rad, as shown in a certain questline. Basically, he's a great mundane leader, with a strong mind for survival, but no head for metaphysics. In our world, I'd say he'd make a decent king. In TES... metaphysics matter more.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:13 pm

Spoiler

The spoiler has me convinced that he's up to something. I doubt he would so willingly let his Empire go to hell in a handbasket if he didn't have a plan.

Or... maybe he's just so depressed he's ready to take a golf-club to the head.

As in, Andrew Ryan-style using the assassin as an excuse to finally kick off and get some rest.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:01 pm

He's totally rad, as shown in a certain questline. Basically, he's a great mundane leader, with a strong mind for survival, but no head for metaphysics. In our world, I'd say he'd make a decent king. In TES... metaphysics matter more.

It gets you Emperor Zero-summed. He is a good Emperor to succeed.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:36 am

What is the Empire fighting for? Do they even know anymore?

The Aldmer know. They've known for a very long time.

I'd assume that they're fighting against the very thing that the Dominion is fighting for. Either that, or they just want to keep those damn dirty elves out of their homeland.

Men are quite fond of the Mundus, from what I can gather.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:17 am

I'd assume that they're fighting against the very thing that the Dominion is fighting for. Either that, or they just want to keep those damn dirty elves out of their homeland.

Men are quite fond of the Mundus, from what I can gather.

It's doubtful that the Empire trully knows what the Thalmor want to achieve however, otherwise they would have never agreed to ban Talos worship. Unless the plan was always to restart the war after a period of recovery, which should be less for the human races then it should be for the Altmer... But even then letting that many Thalmor agents into your lands hunting down whomever they think has something to do with Talos is just plain wrong and vey, very dangerous.

Spoiler

Still the way he faces his death, at the end of the DB questline could mean that he believes a new Emperor could more easily re-unite all human lands and take the fight to the Thalmor then he could... Or alternatively he just doesn't fear death and accepts that it has come

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:58 am

He's not the stinkin [censored] I imagined him to be. I guess the Mede dynasty wasn't so bad. The White Gold Concordat was just buying time until round 2 anyway. Mede understands that the Thalmor won't stop until the humans are dead.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:07 am

He's no Trajan or Hadrian but he's pretty decent. Certainly not the worst emperor the Imperials have ever had.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:04 pm

I felt a bit of Mede hate, going into the game, but the more I think about him I can see him being the bad guy for the greater good. He knows people aren't going to start worshipping Talos, anybody in their right mind would know that. Heck, the Thalmor know it, its why they're actively hunting them down, and not trusting the empire to do it themselves.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:22 am

I felt a bit of Mede hate, going into the game, but the more I think about him I can see him being the bad guy for the greater good.

You know, now that I think...
(DB quest spoilers + brain dump)

Spoiler

his assassination could well be a good thing for the Empire. Perhaps even part of his plan. Think about it. He fought back the best that he could and managed to recapture White-Gold and Cyrodiil, but was too weakened to keep fighting and agreed to the Concordat to keep the Empire alive. The result is that the Nords hate him for banning Talos, the Redguards hate him for annexing Hammerfell from the Empire, and common citizens probably don't like him for giving into the Thalmor, thinking him weak and that he should've tried for a final assault. People didn't like him, now he's dead.

Unless there are heirs, a power vacuum is inevitable, and a good platform for anyone to launch from with an anti-Dominion agenda. He fought death when the Dominion threatened his people, but he did not fight death when the Elder Council had him assassinated.

Maybe he sacrificed himself for his people out of love, so that they may become better after their coming trials and tribulations. Or maybe he was betrayed by his peers with his people hating what he had done to them, wishing they could go back to how it was before their fall from grace.

Maybe he's not so mythically inept after all.

» Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:21 pm

You know, now that I think...
(DB quest spoilers + brain dump)

Spoiler

his assassination could well be a good thing for the Empire. Perhaps even part of his plan. Think about it. He fought back the best that he could and managed to recapture White-Gold and Cyrodiil, but was too weakened to keep fighting and agreed to the Concordat to keep the Empire alive. The result is that the Nords hate him for banning Talos, the Redguards hate him for annexing Hammerfell from the Empire, and common citizens probably don't like him for giving into the Thalmor, thinking him weak and that he should've tried for a final assault. People didn't like him, now he's dead.

Unless there are heirs, a power vacuum is inevitable, and a good platform for anyone to launch from with an anti-Dominion agenda. He fought death when the Dominion threatened his people, but he did not fight death when death came for him.

Maybe he sacrificed himself for his people out of love, so that they may become better after their coming trials and tribulations. Or maybe he was betrayed by his peers with his people hating what he had done to them, wishing they could go back to how it was before their fall from grace.

Maybe he's not so mythically inept after all.

Spoiler

Seeing as he asks you to kill the guy that hired you when you kill him, I seriously doubt this was his own plan, or if it was perhaps he just wants a different person to take over leadership after his death then the planner himself... I also wouldn't understand why he would agree with the things he has agreed with. Increased security, the switching of places during the first assassination attempt... I also don't see why he would tell his guards and his chief security officer that he thought the Dark Brotherhood was still out there, even when they thought they weren't... If he trully wanted to die none of those things would have made sense. Now some can be explained by his security force simply doing their job and him not wanting to tell them about his plans, but not everything.

I'm still very curious about what will happen next, and it is entirely possible that the death of this Emperor and an immediate revocation of the White-Gold treaty by a new Emperor could create a situation where all human nations once again fall within the Empire and take the fight to the Altmer, but is 25 years truly enough for the Empire and those nations to recover from their wars? More importantly however, with the assassination of an Emperor in a politicaly dangerous situation like the one Cyrodiil is in now, who is to say that the assassins can truly take power? They better have planned this all out a great deal in order for this to work... My guess however would be that the Thalmor are somehow involved. It makes sense, to me at least.

Skyrim is in deep problem with the civil war and all, Hammerfell is still in trouble, kill the person responsible for their defeat at the Imperial City and you might just throw Cyrodiil into more problems as well, and who knows maybe even a civil war..