I don't think there are clear-cut "good guys" or "bad guys." I really like that all of the major factions make a pretty compelling argument that the player should support them while also being flawed in their own ways. The fact that the game doesn't force any kind of moral perspective on you makes it a different type of experience than most other story-driven games.

To me the good guys are the NCR...

:wub: Tandi.

The Followers, Mr. House, and Jacobstown are the only true "good guys" in my opinion.

The Followers try to help bring peace everywhere and help everyone. Jacobstown is trying to provide a safe haven for Super Mutants and "cure" the Nightkin's problem with the Stealth Boys (which in turn would help bring peace between Mutants and Humans). Finally, Mr. House is trying to restore the Strip and Humanity back to its glory days and more. He claims he can put a man in space within 50 years, and then have colony ships going to "nonpolluted planets" within 100 years. He also claims he does not want to be worshipped or rule with an iron fist.

In FO2 NCR was a police-state. In NV NCR is trying to take over the Mojave "by any means necessary". Just because they don't have to attack or enslave people who they can willingly con into joining does not mean they will not take someone's land by force or use terror tactics to drive them off the land. The NCR is a bureaucratic nightmare and just because the soldiers are "fighting for the guy standing next to them" does not justify their leaders' actions or goals. I convinced the Great Khans to reform and integrate into the NCR and the General just said, "FIne, we can just kick them out of our territory after they are used at the battle for the dam!"......

I have not tried the Caeser's Legion yet. Mister House only cares about himself and it is in his best interest to control the environment surrounding the Lucky 38 or else someone WILL come in and eliminate him. At least House has some realistic expectations for keeping the peace and promoting a healthy environment even if it is for such a small section of the world. I guess not being hell-bent on world dominations sets him apart from the other factions.

The FotA are self destructive in that they will deal with anyone no matter the affiliation or underlying motive of those people. They give people the tools needed to rebuild society and help the downtrodden, but at the same time they perpetuate dysfunctional behavior like drug use by treating addicts and they seem to lack the foresight in teaching the dangers of the technologies they are trying to preserve.

The Kings are probably the only "good faction" that I have dealt with so far. They try their best to maintain some form of order and fairness in Freeside. They do have some thugs, but that is because the climate of the territory and the population used to bolster their numbers is pretty much all from the ghetto, and as such used to only caring about survival while wandering the ghetto.

I agree with the general consensus that the Followers are the most distinctly "good" faction and the rest are in a sort of gray area, but... the Legion has more votes than the Crimson Caravan? Seriously guys? Mass murdering slavers have the advantage on a morally negotiable merchant company?

I found the Kings to be a large gang of Elvis impersonators that find anyone not from Freeside or the Strip to be an enemy and intruder.



Well, to be fair, Caesar's Legion does have the ability to unite the Mojave (evidence being the areas they already united), rid the areas under their control of drugs and some vices, and help advance the people under their control. Crimson Caravan is just a random company that gets you to eliminate some of the competition and earn them money, while helping out nobody.

If NCR was still under Tandi's rule then I would love NCR. (It would mean a complete redesign of the game though)
But since she's dead I don't got any love for NCR anymore.
They were never the best thing to happen to the wastes, Tandi was.
RIP Tandi.

Marcus in Jacobstown, he just wants everyone to get along. The Followers and the Kings are decent enough sorts too.



He claims... as he rules the Strip with a Securitron-shaped fist, thinking nothing of slaughtering via a proxy anyone who gets in his way...

Hehe...these types of discussions are interesting. Can someone be considered "good" if their intended ends justify their means? After all, you can't do much good for anyone if you're dead or enslaved. I'm not making an argument here so much as playing devil's advocate.

Well, why would anyone get in his way and in the way of restoring the human race?

Restoring them to what, though? Is the Strip much of a model for humanity to aspire to, being as it is devoted to nothing but wanton excess and svcking the resources out of the wider wasteland? And he may make grandiose claims about the technological advances he will bestow on humanity given time, but these could well be empty, vainglorious boasts. Is he going to do this research and developement single-handedly? 'Cause he certainly doesn't seem overly concerned with working with others prior to meeting the Courier, and even then he only acts out of self-interest. Sure, he talks a good game (sort of) when it comes to helping humanity as a whole, but his actions post-war indicate nothing but a paranoiac autocrat who's only concern is prolonging his own shelf-life. No amount of spangly lights change the fact he's just as divorced from reality as any dictator, as evinced by his hagiographical obituary. The man's a hokerr who just happens to have a more impressive set of digs than most.



Given how vague and unsubstantiated House's claims are, no I don't think the ends justify the means in his case.

Followers, Jacobstown, and The Kings are the only ones that are truly good.


Even the Kings have their bad sides though. Violence against NCR citizens and charging for what should be free water (this isn't including the bad guys within the kings like pacer, every org. has a few bad guys).

So the Followers and Jacobstown are the best.

Is the end result of any of the major factions taking power really clear, though? A lot of leaders have taken control of nations under false pretense or were otherwise unwilling or unable to deliver on their stated intentions. Throwing your support behind any leadership is going to involve a leap of faith.

The only truly good guys are The Followers of The Apocalypse.

What has he done that is so bad? What has he done to prove that he is incapable of restoring the people of the Mojave (and probably the rest of the world, if given time) to their pre-war status (probably even technologically superior to that of their pre-war status)? What indication has he shown that he does not want to advance humanity, and instead he wants to rule with an iron fist? When has his credibility been called into question?

No, and that's a fair point. I think all we can go on is the in-game evidence, that is to say we can infer from the Strip as it is what kind of future House has in mind, ditto NCR, Caesar etc.

The thing that makes me laugh about House is that all it takes is him saying "one day I'll have us in space again" and everyone's happy to believe him. As leaps of faith go it's a motorcycle jump over a fleet of double-decker busses...

But is it really that far from the truth that he can't build a space ship? He did, after all, build a missile defense system that managed to disable/destroy most of the nuclear bombs aimed at the Las Vegas area, which is something the American Government couldn't do with most of the major US cities and targets. He also managed to predict when nuclear war would break out, just being a single day off (something the US Government could not do).

My point is, he has proven himself to be above the level of the US Government and all of its scientists. He is essentially a Mr. Stark.

I can give you quite a few of those Gabrial but Torture is not condoned by the NCR, just some minor officers within it that require a proxy such as the pc to commit it, CL anyone not torturing is considered anti caeser.
Brain washing, whole lotta difference between go out and protect the Mojave becauss your family will be enslaved if every man does not do his duty, and if your caught stab yourself to death to prove loyalty imo.
NCR seem to have a disrespect for hokers of any six, but so far I've seen about a 50 / 50 split of sixes in all ranks and positions, a small amount of personnal bigotry does not make the whole nation sixest..
Cl however has an ancient greek attitude towards women of its tribes at best, and a maraudering band of rapists to any other group.

My point is that the NCR's problems are rarely seen in game, it's npc's are mostly good or pushed to those ends, untill the last few quests and epilogue slideshow.
That they are both individually capable of great acts and massive foul ups, and that unexplored political corruption outside of gameplay does not really come any where close to making them as grey as most want them to be.

It could just be me, as I don't see a world without some form of petty corruption, or individual selfishness or heavy taxes or see it as grey.
This does not make a faction evil just more free to exploit loop holes, meaning anyone no matter who can reach the top, plainly it's democracy.
People still suffer but nowhere near the levels of mind blowing violation of a dictatorship based on the worst practices from past ages that CL would create.

@Madoc- -scoff- NCRs problems not seen? Are you utterly insane? Their troops are undertrained, they commit shady acts, it's made pretty clear by many that the NCR doesnt want the Mojave, they want the resources that the Mojave has, they could care less about it's people. I despise Caesars Legion, but at least they are honest about their plans. NCR likes to shoot your lights out from a distance and have two soldiers bend you over and say 'this is in the name of the greater good.'

Now, on to my inevitable defense of Mr. House. I think the people here with a more business minded personality are the only people who will really understand the character of Mr. House. He is not evil, nor is he bad. He is more a cold and efficient neutral. He only has you destroy one faction, and he will do good things for his benefit or for the success of his plans. He is clearly no philanthrophist, but to call him 'evil' or 'bad' is nothing short of misunderstood misguidance. Even in one of the ending clips it states 'Do to the Couriers actions across the Mojave, he serves as an advisor, making sure Mr. House does not abuse his power.

Personally, I feel Mr. House is a very efficient man, take a look at the things he accomplished with Rob-Co before the Great War, and had the Platinum Chip arrived before the War, no bomb would have ever hit Vegas, Is Mr. House pure of heart? No. Is he a visionary with the possibility to accomplish much? Oh yes.

Well, for me...he's dead. Dead because he was too damn cheap to put a lightbulb in my appartment. Sometimes, it's the little things that get you...

I know I sound a major NCR groupie, the thing is I've killed more of them then I've helped during playthroughs but I still can't see them as bad..
Maybe I do need help, but I can only say that I disliked or mistrusted 3 true NCR agents Col Moore, the head of Nevada operations of the OSP, and gaah I can't remember now.
Shady acts I see a few but most are explained away, Freeside was due to idiots on both sides, NCRCF used prisoners whom I like tbh but granted freedom to them in lieu more than likely.
First hand accounts from Bittersprings show's that it was a major CoC error that should never have happened, but that A the Khans ( my true loyalty ) used kids and elderly in combat before, B spent years attacking anyone, C that just about every soilder believed it was the wrong action.
They care about themselves first, not they don't care about anyone else name me a nation that does not.


I love this and I won't argue....

Apart from a nation is the sum of its people, how many bad NCR members are there taking action becuase it's the wrong thing to do towards others.
How many are unmotivated killers, how many seek destruction for its power alone, how many are fighting and giving up their lives so that everyone bows to their master, how many serve without question...

My points are the NCR goverment may be grey but the NCR itself is a lot more free and noble in its people.

NCR? Well, they're just like any republic. Hell, they're basically America. There are a lot of good people there, but there are also bad actors. More importantly, they suffer from corruption, bureaucracy, greed, all the sort of dysfunction we expect from a semi-liberal, expansionist democratic republic.

Caesar's Legion? Well, they're definitely not good. But they are essentially a really hardline force for promoting order, security, virtue, and social hygiene. Of course, more feminine virtues like compassion and mercy tend to be second-class citizens (like women themselves). But their black turns to more of a charcoal gray if you start to see them as a defensive reaction against people like the Fiends.

Mr. House? Also not a "good guy", nor would he claim to be. Somewhere in between Ozymandias and Patrician Vetinari, he's a benevolent dictator with a plan for elevating humanity through technological achievement. While his promises might be empty, his track record says otherwise -- he did protect the city from nuclear devastation, built an incorruptible security force, gave it a source of income to fund The Plan, and (potentially) fought off two very powerful factions. Not to mention basically making himself immortal. While he isn't a good guy, the social order he creates could be considered appealing to people who would prefer to be left alone. Still, Gomorrah indicates that there are people that will suffer in such a society.

The Brotherhood of Steel? Not good guys -- indeed, sometimes real [censored]s. However, given that humanity was almost annihilated by technology run amok, their motivations are understandable, if a little rigid and dogmatic. In FO1, they were "good" insofar as they were helpful for fighting the bad guys. In FO2, they helped against the Enclave as well, though other major powers (NCR, the Shi) were arising at this time. In FO3, they're just there. Take them or leave them.

The Great Khans? Well, they're definitely underdogs, but they aren't saints by any measure, and they did their part to earn the mistreatment they got. Being kicked around doesn't make you a good guy, though it might make someone else a bad guy.

Followers of the Apocalypse? Well, they're the most altruistic group in the Mojave, and the closest to truly good. However, their good intentions can either go awry or be abused by less decent folk (see: Caesar, Emily Ortal).

Boomers? Yeah, sure, if you follow an ethical system based on explosions.

State of Utobitha? No. Though they can try to plead insanity to get out of being "Evil"

Jacobstown? They're most neutral. I could see them going bad without the right leadership, with the mental instability of the Nightkin (depending on things turn out), and the idiocy of some supermutants. Marcus is a good guy (as long as you don't give him a minigun and bring him adventuring with you), but "Jacobstown" is more than just Marcus

Powder Gangers? No, criminals are not usually good people. Some are worse than others.

Crimson Caravan? Not really, for reasons best discovered in-game.

The Kings? Well, they're not "bad". But they are a gang, and they are unnecessarily harsh with the NCR squatters -- some of them haven't taken "Don't be cruel" to heart well enough.

Yeah, this is how I felt, pretty much. Kimball, Oliver and the Brahmin Barons may be bastards, but most of NCR seems like decent enough folks. Otherwise why would they they be helping the people displaced by Caesar's Legion at Bitter Springs, or spending resources to help poor citizens in Freeside?

Actually, Preside Kimball reminds me more of that 1950s American 'take charge' kind of war hero turned politician.

Yeah, that's why I sided with him on my first playthrough. You don't need to be good to do good, and anyone can see how humanity could benefit from his leadership, even if it's in a indirect "rising tide raises all boats" sorta way. He was the only guy who had a coherent vision, one that didn't involve arbitrarily eradicating the social fabric of the Mojave (Legion) or simply amounted to "enter region and take stuff" (NCR)