From MK:


The main things I've taken away from this are:
1) "gods and heroes and demons" - I don't know what context MK used these words in. Based on what Nirn's mortal races call them, I would have assumed "Aedra and mortals and Daedra". But if MK was using the words in their real-world sense, he's perhaps referring to... "demiurges and mortals and [malicious] spirits"? But it's the word "heroes" (mortals?) that has me most intrigued.

2) "that live between creations" - this I initially thought to mean leaping between kalpas; continued existence through and in spite of Alduin's devouring of the world and a given kalpa's end. But other thoughts and sources lead me to think MK might've been referring to their where and not their when; are they primarily outside of the kalpas (as Alduin and other beings know them)?


This is a concept in TES lore that appeals to me a lot. So I did a bit of digging...


http://www.imperial-library.info/content/two-moons-one-sun seems to imply the former:


Another source, http://www.imperial-library.info/content/vehks-book-hours-concerning-dragon-break, seems to imply both interpretations:


The Blue Star Mnemoli is a Star Orphan referred to both as a "she" and an "it" which merely runs through (and otherwise "explores") the Aurbis during a Dragon Break, and needs no worship (always is worshiped?).


But am I correct in thinking Alduin devours the Aurbis, not merely Nirn's mortals, to end a kalpa? Is it possible the Star Orphans enter and leave the Aurbis, both in order to persist between kalpas and on their own whims and desires?

Searching also brought up a star-related thread in which I found http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/4708/cosmologyofnirns.jpg. Then there's http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/862112-aedra/page__hl__star+orphans, and http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/858254-meridia/page__hl__star+orphans__st__20.

So, the Star Orphans are akin to the sun, et al, except in that they were "left behind" during the creation of Nirn and now move freely in (and/or through) the Aurbis, essentially on the fringes of a kalpa. Armed with this (alleged) new knowledge, I then cheerfully re-read the first MK quote again...



... And now I really want to know, besides the Blue Star who appears during a Dragon Break, who the other Star Orphans are, and especially of the nature of their existence. MK's choice of words leads me to believe a Star Orphan may be, but is not necessarily defined as being a literal star. What I'm getting at, in fact, is that they might be beings not unlike the Aedra and Daedra, and even the mortal peoples of Nirn. Is it possible that like the Aedra, Star Orphans have less-immortal descendants on Nirn?

Have I made any sense of this? Any corrections and explanations would be much appreciated.

...according to the texts, Mnemoli is a wayward child of ANU, one of a pantheon of forgotten deities known as the ‘Star Orphans'... a tribe of gods and goddesses that apparently felt abandoned when the Sun Withdrew from the World-Making. Like many of her siblings, Mnemoli is both confused and delighted with the Aurbis, and explores its five quarters as best she can without the help and regulation of worship, which are not needed (by which I mean, always there) during breakings of the sideways wheel...

Freely, when there's a door for them to enter Mundus. She's otherwise unreal, an http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/936954-lore-questions/page__view__findpost__p__17138870, whose sound in Mundus can only mean a return to pre-Convention freedoms.

Think of them as the all-stars between kalpas, if that helps.
If "all-stars" doesn't help, don't think about it.

This is a question that has not been answers. It is the question that most deserves an answer.

No, I think he was referring to neither their "where" nor their "when." He's specifically referring to their "unwhen." They don't exist "outside" of creation when time is running normally. They don't exist, really, at all. However, between kalpas and during Dragon Breaks, they do exist.



You are correct if you meant that Alduin devours all of Mundus. I believe the realms of Oblivion remain intact. Regardless, though, I again don't think the Star Orphans are coming and going to/from creation as though through revolving doors. They have been abandoned here within creation, but having not participated in the Convention, the memory of their existence is not deified like the Aedra, and so through time they cease to persist as distinct beings -- EXCEPT between creations and during Dragon Breaks, when time is all silly and so they're always being worshipped at the same time that they're not. And speaking of memory -- Mnemoli is just that. There is a reason she persists even when -- or should I say especially when -- Auri-El cannot. Memory is harder to break than Time -- but the two are inextricably bound up with one another.



I'm afraid there we have little to go on. However, I don't think the Star Orphans could have less-than immortal descendants, because they did not participate in the Convention. They are simply Lost in the course of regular time.

As far as I can tell, Star Orphans are certain Magna Ge that didn't make it through to Aetherius and are therefore trapped within the Aurbis. But that is purely speculation on my part. Like pretty much all of my post here. :whistling:

Nonetheless, I appreciate the insight. And I realise the ambiguity of these elements of the setting may be one of their many strengths, but it's nice to get different (and more experienced) perspectives on it.

I hadn't considered the possibility that they only exist between kalpas. And it does seem to make more sense, given the only other information we have on the Star Orphans.

On the other hand, assuming you're correct, that still leaves me curious about them being referred to as "gods and heroes and demons." Perhaps different Orphans simply assume these classical roles (as a result of their not-worship) during periods of existence?

Sorry to barely contribute, but could this mean that the Dwemer dissapeared to escape Alduin's devouring? They could have known the Heart was going to be a sign of his return or something, and then transcended to avoid it altogether.

I'd say no. In all likelihood, they wanted to do what the altmer wanted, to go back. Except, they didn't necessarily desire to eliminate Mundus, and figure breaking through by becoming the Numidium will allow them to head back to the first stroke of Padomay and Anu.

Tenth Divine is essentially right, actually - and the Dwemer were not at all like the Altmer.

They still wanted to go back. However, they wanted to go really far back, not the Dawn. And I doubt it was because Alduin would munch on Mundus.

Unless I'm missing something.

The Dwemer wanted to go back? Geez, that's off! The Dwemer were following a transcendent path: The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

They wanted to go before the First Stroke of Anu and Padomay all the way back to AE. They were more transcendent than the Aldmer.

thought they wanted to go to the first stroke, not before it. It'd be cooler to see it immediately than wait for it, ya know.

Calling the Aldmer "transcendent" is just baffling because its the exact opposite of what the Aldmer are. The Dwemer were going after the same thing as Vivec, as Septim, as Lorkhan. The fact that the passage I quoted was from the words of "Xal, Human Marukhati" should be enough to prove that. They didn't want to "go back" to anything.

Some of their ruins in Skyrim may even hint to what I said earlier too. Yet I hope we don't learn too much more because I've always like the mysterious aspect of the culture.

The Dwemer were not interested in "returning" to anything. To transcend means to surpass, not to regress. The Dwemer would have had no interest in being like the et'Ada. They were...how was it once put? "atheists on a world where gods exist."

Why bother to create a New God if they wanted to go back to the first stroke? No, they bought into the Scarab's goals, even if they went about it the wrong way and failed.

EDIT: Oops. Ninja'd.

Exactly, which is escaping Alduin in the sense that it is escaping the cycles of time, of death and rebirth.

See, I keep seeing conflicting statements about this kind of thing, and they all tend to have supporting literature. Weren't the Dwemer attempting to achieve Amaranth by being their own first stroke? Wouldn't an atheist in a world of gods be an egoist in the extreme?

Amaranth's unfulfilled in previous gradients, so AE wouldn't have been their objective.


He'd be the most miserable god.

By saying "being their own first stroke" you imply something very different than the regression desired by the Altmer. It means surpassing the et'Ada, and Aurbis, altogether. There may be...similarities. Yagrum says (paraphrasing from memory) that he believed Kagrenac had used "systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- to achieve the divine through the deaths of the profane." At first blush this sounds like an Altmer design. But it was only a means to an end to create a new god -- something the Altmer would find sacrilegious -- and which more accurately aligns with Lorkhan's designs for the mortals of Mundus.

Yes. They were the ultimate egoists. This accounts for why they so rapidly found a way to trascend, and also why they failed to do so.

Depending on your definition of "fail," of course.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the personalities that exist between kalpas, not any particular figure. Wraiths in the truest sense; indestructible, haunting - and defined by their essences more than any particular incarnation that, no matter how great, is yet another shadow and born to die. This is how the Blue Star can be both a she and an it.