What's not to like about the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ebony_Mail_%28artifact%29?

How dost thou miss the point, oh let me count the ways.

I need more fingers.

He is. That levitating excuse for a god.

Being good is based on perspective. If one does what one thinks is best for everyone, you are good, even if you, perceived from another perspective, are evil. Thus there is no true line between good and evil, a-hole and nice guy. It all depends on who's speaking.

:sad: Hey, now, no need to start insulting me!

Would you enlighten me, then, as to the point? I'm having a difficult time thinking today.

But- but, you :stare:'ed at me!

Mostly just stop expecting the thing to act like a meteor, since it's not just a really big rock. It's a fantasy world and it can go as fast as it bloody well wants to.

As to why the Dunmer don't attempt to remove it- not only is the inevitability of its threat completely unknown, but it is the greatest symbol of their faith. They would sooner lose the city than reject their god.

...and also, the ministry of truth only exists in there because Baar Dau allowed them to "build" it in there due to it being impressed by Vivec's power. I doubt it would allow them to destroy it.

:o

Sorry, I was :stare:-ing at the physics, not at you!

:hugs:



Oooh... right. Not a rock. A sentient being that looks like a rock and will fall down BOOM like a rock. Hey, crazier things exist in TES. Like CHIM. Okay, so Vivec is keeping this Baar Dau fellow floating? But, aren't Vehk's powers derived from Kagrenac's tools greatly diminished/gone? Is he using CHIM to keep it floating from crashing down into the ground?

As to the whole thing about it being a symbol of people's faith... isn't its purpose to imprison supporters of the Nerevarine, and potential Nerevarines? And other heresy-type people? Now that the Nerevarine's come and done his/her thing, is there really any point to Lie Rock? You know, other than to provide jobs for all those Indorils.

And what about the Tribunal faith crumbling into a shambles with the demise of Ayem and Seht?

Hmmm... or, I'm just confusing myself. :ahhh:

Vivec is not keeping it up. Baar Dau is staying there because it was so impressed with Vivec's power when he stopped it.

Here, from "The Pilgrim's Path":

Huh. Okay, so what happens when Baar Dau gets bored? Or, will it always be impressed because Vehk achieved CHIM?

The rock is a spirit. What do spirits appear as in space? Planets and shooting stars. It is only logical that an alien entity streaming into Nirn would remain... a rock.

Vivec does not hold the rock up. The entire point is that he used the power inherent in love and worship to hold to stop it, and faith keeps it aloft. The Dunmer hold it up. The idea of using it as a prison was rather nasty and not of any theological significance. Sounds like Berel Sala's work.

Edit: M'aiq's source is the sugary version. The rock is a threat, but in the meantime it is also a monument to faith.

It swore itself to service of the Tribunal/faith is keeping it up. I suppose it will stay there forever, unless he thinks the oath is over/faith has ended when the Tribunal dies. Perhaps this is what happens in the 5th Era, Vivec dies and Baar Dau crashes into the ground and thus is the Landfall.

What better prison than one where you can't escape without going splat?

Though on a curious note, if Vivec knows of Baar Dau's fate, why doesn't he choose to stop it, as in truly destroy it? Rather, he just freezes it, only delaying the impending impact. It seems an odd choice to me. Does he keep it around simply as a trophy, a marker of his past deeds, as a form of divine bribery (love me or perish), or for some unknown reason. It seems he must have had a reason, since he seems capable enough to destroy such an object.

As for the things Vivec supposedly did, it does tend to be easier to view them from a metaphorical point. Their purpose is to teach the people lessons?hence the names of the shrines, such as Humility, Daring, Grace, et cetera. The focus isn't on what he did, but how what he did shows how we should be. But still, that's avoiding the question, isn't it?

Simply put, we don't know. My own assumption is that while some events may have an element of truth, the majority of them are hidden under the layers of Vivec's poetry to the point where it's hard to say where he means what he says. He could speak of literal actions, of spiritual actions, of poetic actions, or even of all three at once. The most you can go on is your own intuition, as there is no definitive answer that I'm aware of.

Edit: This forum, so busy during the day?



That does change things a bit. Even so, with the powers of a god and chim, it seems he would still be capable of eliminating the threat, yet chooses not to. It seems hard to imagine that he is (or at least was) incapable of doing so?

Edit 2: Quick Edit, I hate you and your apostrophe-corrupting powers...

My inner adventurer is wondering how many enchantment points I'll get if I soul trap it.


Like.... like Masser and Secunda?


What if they lose faith?


MmMmm, sugary. :liplick: I've been having quite the sweet-tooth today.

But that is a major theme of the sermons: the nature of Vivec's godhood is that his metaphors become literal realities. He interacts with his own dreams and poems.


Exactly. And if they lose faith, Landfall.

:ooo: That is so sixy! :hubbahubba:

:P


But, Masser and Secunda are different because they don't need faith? Or, is it the faith people have in Lorkhan and his enantiomorphs, and people being enantiomorphs, that keep Masser and Secunda up in the sky? And why, in the Cosmology section at TIL, does it say that parts of Masser and Secunda are disappearing? Is it because the whole faith thing doesn't work as well on decaying fleshy remains of missing gods as it does on alive Baar Dau-like entities?

I think the Landfall is predicted to happen in the Fourth Era, though how long the Era will last is an open question. The Loveletter is written in the Fifth Era, after generations of Dunmer have lived underground and expanded the tunnels. Some institutions such as the C0da (an AI?) exist in the Fifth Era that we know little about at this point, which indicates to me that both the Fourth and Fifth Eras will last for centuries. Sorry for the nitpicking, though.

I thought Masser and Secunda were part's of Lorkhans soul (his flesh-divinity, whatever that is)?

@syronj: nit-picking is good, if it teaches something

Oh, I was only pointing to Masser and Secunda as examples of what gods appear like in the heavens. It's a sphere.

I don't know what the moons are doing right now. They're just there, and maybe decaying for the simple reason that Lorkhan is dead. But Lorkhan doesn't seem very dead. At all. I haven't thought of him as dead or even impaired for a good while now.

Unless the energy from it's initial descent is stored up inside of it still it's not going to fall as fast as a comet normally would.

Well, Lorkhan isn't dead, that's obvious. I think he exists, but is bound to Nirn, unable to do anything but sustain Nirn's life.

I've wondered how self-aware Lorkhan is. He's not "dead" in the sense of being unconscious or fragmented mentally, I assume, but how much of Nirn's present and future does he understand? I wonder if he is less sentient than mortals currently.

"In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming"

It was said, by MK I think, that Lorkhan's spirit went into Nirn when freed from the heart. I think he is as sentient as a god is, but he can't do anything.

Well, that's essentially what Paw-prints has already said. It's not like Lie Rock is floating.