Well I'm reading this and it doesn't say exactly that this is all a dream. I just think that all this a total waste of time if this whole thing is just some [censored]'s dream and not an actual universe where everything that happens is really happening (game wise).

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml

http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

EDIT: Bah, ninja'd hardcoe. :ninja:

@ Tes96: Dream or actual Universe? But are those two concepts truly incompatible?

What is the universe if not God's dream? When it comes to a God ruling the universe, does it really matter if he's watching you or if you're in his head? If you're there, you know you're there, you can feel yourself there, then you are there and you are real. Even if you are just a figment of a God's imagination. Does it really matter whether you are within or without that God? Especially when the only thing that is important is that you are off that God; and so is everyone else.

Are you two (ThatOneGuy and Orzorn) saying that even as I'm typing while drinking my soda and eating my doritos, that that is a dream as well? That when I just came back from doing my laundry just now, that was merely something going on in God's head?

No, silly, because that is what's going on the Elder Scrolls universe!

But yes, pretty much. The important thing to realize is that it is not futile. Whats the difference between God creating you and you being a figment of his split personality syndrome? Nothing. You die just as easy both ways, but the cool part about the second possibility is that, if you realize the world is an illusion, and that you're part of God himself, you can control the entire world. If the world is the illusion of a God's mind, and you are a split personality of that God, that effectively makes you God himself. If you're God himself, then that means you're the dreamer; you now can control the dream.

Of course, the hard part is making sure to realize that you are still you and not a nothingness in an God's imagination. If you forget that, then you zero-sum and just disappear from existence.

Well, I wouldn't go so far to make a real world comparison. However, the universe of TES is founded in metaphysical concepts; its total existence is due to those metaphysics. With that in mind, the idea that every being in the world is like a droplet of water in an ocean, that everyone is a separate role and part of this tortuously fractured and schizophrenic mind, doesn't seem too off-kilter.

It's not like most people in the world come to that realization, that I ARE ALL WE. Or if they do, then they (IIRC) zero sum. That's what makes CHIM so special: "Imagine being able to feel with all of your senses the relentless alien terror that is God and your place in it, which is everywhere and therefore nowhere, and realizing that it means the total dissolution of your individuality into boundless being. Imagine that and then still being able to say "I"."

Though I'm with Orzorn in that I'm not the best person to ask in-depth. I'm but a reader of transcripts, not myself a transcriber.

Dude, they?re trying to explain CHIM to you... The dream part is kind of a metaphor... but at the same time it?s not

Crap! I just made it worst.

Huh?

I was reading this but it doesn't make any sense to me. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/5th_era_loveletter.shtml

What is "zero sum"?

So imagine your a new fancy Chymany dude/dudet. You realize you're everything in the universe, because you're a part of God himself (a split personality, to be exact). Well, if everyone else is part of God, too (split personalities and all that), then that means you are them too! So, you're sitting there realizing this, that you are everyone all at once, and then you, in your new realization, forget that you yourself even exist. If you're everyone then I ARE ALL WE (translated to English:"I am everyone at once"). Without an extremely strong will and a good perspective on things, you forget you exist. You lose your ability to look at the universe in this way and still say "I". In the rush of this realization, you lose the ability to identify yourself as a singular being within the universe, everyone at once yet separate from everyone at the same time.

And then you go kaput about the instant this colossal fail of perspective hits you and you disappear from existence altogether. Sounds fun, doesn't it?

zero sum is when you realize you are just a droplet in an ocean that is the dream. However, you can't say "I am still me" and you disappear. Zero-Sum and CHIM are similar, but wholly different. With CHIM, you still retain your individuality, despite being everything. With Zero-Sum, you are everything, but you're not an individual and you disappear. Tiber and Vivec achieved the former (CHIM), and the moth priests often obtain the latter (zero-sum)

Yep. *Poof.*

"Hey, I'm you! And you, and you and you an-" [NUMINIT]

Where do they go after this "kaput" if they are part of God to begin with?

Honestly, I was just asking myself the same question.

Maybe their entire split personality is demolish, maybe they just die and their soul goes through the normal Dreamsleave ho-ha, or maybe Idunnolul.

I'm putting my money on getting tossed into the Dreamsleeve. Place wash cycle on "heavy duty," set to "spin dry," and toss back the blank-slate soul to Nirn.

I don't agree with that if you are one of the split personalities of God and everybody else is a split personality, wouldn't that mean that God has a septillion different spilt personalities? And therefore, your own split personality is unique and not the same as the guy right next to you.

And why can't the Nerevarine or the Champion of Cyrodiil (the protagonist) realize that he/she is CHIM or zero-sum while playing the game? I mean, how difficult is it to realize something like that? All it takes is for some NPC to go up to you and tell you that in the game and then you go "oh really? Wow, I never knew that." And then the magic begins and you are omnipotent? Am I on the right track?

How deliciously [NUMINIT]

Dying? Phhhffff.. That's small time. Now losing your identity and then dying and then losing your identity totally? Talk about owned!


There has always been a joke, with a sort of lingering truth about it, that the player DOES have CHIM, or rather, CHIM is realizing that you're in a video game and that you can just reload the game or mod it if you don't like something. Dying isn't a barrier when you can reload. Those jungles in Cyrodiil? Emperor got bored and modded them out.

But, it was just said that it isn't just a soul, it's a personality of God (head). Theoretically, could God destroy itself by having all its personalities simultaneously realise that they are part of each other and it? If all of God's personalities go "kaput", can there still be God?

Moreover, how does a mortal realise that they are part of all things, unless they can first realise "all things"? Sure, I can "say" I am part of all the people in China, and they are a part of me, but I don't exactly know all the people in China so it seems hard to realise I am part of someone I am not aware of, yet alone realise that someone I am not aware of is also a part of me.

And with what lostminstrel is saying, what happens when you actually realize all that stuff? Man, does anybody have Skype or yahoo so I can just chat with them about this? Otherwise, I'll be posting ten thousand replies.

Perhaps it would be best to leave this topic till tomorrow so the more well educated can answer your questions with greater depth. I'm far too straight forward to make this interesting.

If you are a fragment of the same being, a drop in the ocean, and you come to that realization, you're viewing the world in a radically different manner. You're no longer viewing things as the droplet of water. You're viewing things as the ocean. And just as you the droplet contributes to you the ocean, so does everyone else the droplet contribute to you (and everyone else) the ocean. If you still viewed parts of the whole as "unique," then you would have not come to the realization of I ARE ALL WE.

Attaining that knowledge is not so easy. We have it easy because we have access to sources and materials and outside-the-world-looking-in perspective and anolysis. The inhabitants of TES don't have (most of) those things. And perhaps there's a difference between knowledge and true realization. For example, you can know that every day in America, 10 people are murdered. However, do you really feel those 10 deaths every day, in the fullest sense of the word?


Meh, I'm getting close to the threshold of what I'm capable of providing rough unpolished explanations for. Again, I agree with Orzorn. Proweler or Luagar or someone can jump in and not only will they likely put things in exponentially more eloquent terms, they'll wrap it all up in a fun rubick's-cube puzzle to boot!

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh.... I think I'm slowly starting to kinda get it. But I mean, slowly, like slower than a sloth or a sload. Man, I get so involved with this game's lore that I sometimes believe it actually is real. (j/k)

eh, sounds like Proweler and Luagar might just use a bunch of verbose vocabulary and big words and make it even more confusing for me. I like simple words and visual depictions/examples and straight-forwardness since that's how my mind learns. I'm a Virgo. I'm a smart guy but this lore crap is so convoluted and is not nearly as straight forward as Tolkien's lore/mythology. But it's highly interesting and I want to learn all I can about it.

But yeah, for us it's easy since we (bethesda employees and the like) created this entire game series/universe.
I like the droplet in the ocean anology; makes it visual and easier to understand. Thanks. I'll wait for the lore gods to awaken from their slumber to elucidate me better.

It's pretty much a desperate attempt to add some sort of philosophical depth to the TES series. For some people it strikes them as profound, for people who've actually studied philosophy and history outside of TES it comes off as kind of shallow. But in large part for the fans of it, it's a magic word for them that they can giggle to themselves thinking they've found out who knows what and that they can have some sort of 'je ne sais quoi' element to it all.

See and comprehend the world as it really is - in it's ultimate reality.


A little late, but allow me to comment on this:
You don't need to understand CHIM and waste your time to it when you don't want it. It's your choice, noone forces you to. What's important is that you enjoy the universe, no matter how you do it. Those who just enjoy the universe without knowing or caring what CHIM is are doing it perfectly right.

Acually, though, you're touching something which imho is important.

Let me elaborate: The TES universe may not be exactly what you think it is, but it still is. Worldly example: a lot of people thought for a long time that the world is flat - until some smart guys proved them wrong. The world wasn't flat, it was round. Later other guys proved that the earth was not the center of the universe and so on. The world may not be what you think it is, but that doesn't mean it is less real (you can still get your sweets from the store and meet your friends).

Next level:
To you, my dreams would be of no concern, you cannot see my dreams, you just see me sleeping. But my dreams are still real to me, they exist. Now one step further, to lucid dreaming, when the sleeper is aware that he's dreaming and can even participate in the dream and influence it. Which makes it much more real to the sleeper.
An example of a lucid dream I really had (no kidding, even though it sounds quite clicheed):
I was shopping for video games and suddenly, I came across a table where they sold the all TES games, in the original boxes, with all gimmicks including the PGE1 with Redguard etc. I somehow remembered though that the games really aren't sold anymore and began to realize it was a dream. I still loved the dream, although I knew it was just a dream. Consequently, I bought the games nontheless (and faintly remember having trouble installing them). And when I woke up, I needed to convince myself that the games were not on my shelf in the living room.

Transfer that to the TES game world now:
Isn't it strange that people in Anvil have exactly the same to say about ugly mudcrabs than those in Cheydinhal? That they happily say the same over and over again even if they already met this day? That you can get stuck or fall through floors? That there's no real consequence when you die? That things start to happen just because you are here? That people entrust you with the weirdest tasks of high importance even if you just got out of jail?

Realize the world for what it is - it doesn't make it any less worthwhile to be in. And love it. For all its strengths and weaknesses.

Edit:
Back to lucid dreaming and referring to a http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1034626&view=findpost&p=14990049 of Proweler earlier in the thread. Next level: Imagine the sleeper's "dream personality", realizing he's in a dream, then turning, looking up and saying "hi" to the sleeper...

While this is true, bear in mind that most of us consider it Boring And Therefore Wrong (BATW), a shorthand way of saying it's not part of our communal canon. This isn't universally the case, nor does the lore forum's popular brand of fanon have to apply to you, should you choose not to believe it. Still, it's something to be aware of -- I, personally, have always found it a stupid concept because it doesn't say anything about the universe or the nature of fiction, so it's kind of a stupid gimmick.

A much cooler fourth wall-breaking realization concerning the player character would be that the games (our window into the TES world, i.e. the TES mythos) are the Elder Scrolls themselves, and the infinite possibilities of the future (or past) that the Scrolls represent in their writing of myth are anologous to our (allegedly) infinite number of choices as the player characters. But anyway this doesn't have to do with CHIM, so I'm pretty much just proselytizing now.

Kudos to Orzorn for his CHIM/Zero Sum explanation, by the way. It was quite an excellent summary of the concept for a newbie, and should probably be stickied or linked to in the future or something.