Stop while you're ahead, you have no idea what you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Europe

Does that mean you agree? I am so confused. RPs? Harpies? Winged Twilights. What?

Glad I'm not the only one with similar thoughts about CHIM though. If I wasn't so lazy, I would make "magic gets in the way of good story telling" my signature. At the same time though, you could argue that magic is the driving force of lazy story telling. A wizard did it.

I seriously don't understand how people continue to frequent the lore forum when you want the good crap to be taken out.

That's almost like saying "Sin City would have been a good movie if it wasn't so violent."

What were saying is things like CHIM aren't part of the "good crap" though. We like good crap, but some of the wacky magicky things that have happened seem more like cop-outs (to me anyway). Lore isn't just wacky magicky things, after all.

Good movies don't need to contain violence, though I can't comment on Sin City because I haven't seen it.

How is Chim a copout? Apart from the jungle thing, which is a side-issue and is no basis for disliking Chim one the whole.

:turtle:

Now days, I couldn't really care less about the metaphysics of Tamriel. It's become so boring that I want to destroy the rest of the Towers just to get it all over with.

What I wanna see more of is historical stuff!

The word I would not use is "silly", but "frustrating".

I think that some here have really underestimated how daunting MK's writing can be. It requires a very specific mindset, and if you don't think in the particular way that the writing requires, it comes across as gibberish. Thus, when you come to the forums and see all these other posts by people whom are tossing around these odd words and speaking in these complex metaphysical debates, you start to feel stupid. When you ask a question only to be responded by a list of other highly interperative and complex pieces of writing, it makes you feel even worse. I often felt like an elementary school kid in the middle of a college calculus class, asking "What the hell is a derivative?!" only to be tossed a book of advanced algebra and told "Get this down first, then you'll be fine". Nothing could ever be broken down to a level I could understand, and it was too embarassing to admit because it would feel like I was the only one who didn't get it.

One of the reasons I think this is so hard is because MK is an exceptional, gifted, brilliant writer, but a poor storyteller. MK is a philosopher, he likes posing eloquent, complex, paradoxical questions that make the reader's eyes blow wide open and spend the night chugging power drinks trying to unwravel the mysteries of the universe before collapsing in a heap and begging mommy to make the monsters go away. This is exquisite mind excersise and a true display of being able to effect the reader with your words, but you can't make a story made entirely of variables and interperations.

Take the "story" behind Lorkhan.

The setting: The Wheel, symbolic, open to interperatation.

The characters: Aedra and daedra/ideas and concepts, symbolic, open to interperatation.

The plot: CHIM, the "I", the Tower, symbolic, open to interperitation.

It's great for debating, but it's not a story because there is no purpose except for what the reader wants to think is the point. This is philosophy, which there is nothing wrong with, but you have to been expecting it to enjoy it. Thus, when many people, like myself, come here with a question concerning the point of the Elder Scrolls story, or the history of the Aedra, and the response is "Well, that depends on this, which could be interepereted this way, depending on how you read into this here..." many throw up their hands and say "What the hell are you babbling about?" It's ultimately a shame because I think that the backstory and work put into the Elder Scroll universe is very well done, and I think MK has a brilliant imagination with a lot of potential ideas that would work well in future games. It's just that if you make a piece of art so complex that the audience feels like they're being spoken down to, they aren't going to be able to enjoy the workmanship.

*Apologies for spelling, almost 1:00 am.

Interesting.

Your reaction to the difficulty to MK's work is very different from mine. I enjoy the challenge of that style of writing. I'm intriqued by the hint of meaning that's out of reach at first glance. It's a situation where what the langauge refers to is outside of what the language (of an in-game persona) can say.

Having said that, if you're running into problems "interpreting" MK's work, you're probably trying to hard. Start by taking everything literally. Take your very own "story behind Lorkhan": Lorkhan tricks/convinces the et'Ada which will become the Aedra to make a sacrifice to the creation of the Mundus, this creative effort is an attempt at CHIM, but Lorkhan is attacked and "killed." Take the story at face value and its a basic story of someone with a new idea, a new way of thinking, who gets betrayed and killed for it. The plot is very simple. Now, if you want to arrive at some "deeper" meaning of the story, start with the story of Osiris and work from there.

That sounds like an unpleasant experience. For me and I dare say many others here, discovering TES metaphysics has been nothing but exhilarating, mind and heart opening and ultimately beautiful. The process of learning and integrating the various interpretations people here have developed over the years of thinking these issues over should be a pleasure rather than a pain. That said, I'm afraid these "complex, paradoxical questions" don't really have answers for the whole of the widening audience of the ES series.


It is exactly his storytelling that some of us here consider the most artistic of TES creations and his greatest accomplishment and contribution. The "philosophy" springs from it, not the other way around, that's its magic. The stories MK tells are, like you have noticed, strings of symbols, like dreams; but while our dreams may have a unique meaning to each of us, the firmament of TES lore is quite stable, anchored not only by the personal signature of the author but also by the collective imagery we all share and should perceive without a conscious effort. There's no specific mindset you need to get into this: an open mind should do just fine.

Plus I think it's obtuse and difficult to read at first for a reason. MK seems pretty capable of relatively straightforward storytelling, as evidenced by the http://www.imperial-library.info/rgbooks/page.shtml?-1. He writes his metaphysical stuff in the style that he does because it's SUPPOSED to be weird, a sort of reflection of our own world's complex theologies. Except, because of mythopoeia, they're all true at the same time.

I was referring to the Trial of Vivec, and no I was not agreeing. That was me trailing off so I wouldn't get banned.

As for 'magic gets in the way of good storytelling,' in a fantasy setting where you can play as a mage, dealing in myths and legends, drawing on the legacy of Tolkien and Gygax, that statement boggles the mind.

And besides that bizarre statement, you're still confused. Metaphysics isn't magical at all.

Edit: People seem also seem to be overlooking the little blasphemy that as a medium for storytelling other than the sort in Morrowind, ES games kinda blow.

Oh my Godhead, talk about silly.

Storytelling *is* magic.

As ancient as mankind, probably. Thinking of the shamans explaining the world's myths to their people around the fire.

I'm guessing MK means in The TES world, by means of mythopoesis.

You're probably right. The difference between Nirn and our world is that their myths actually are true at the core.

"illogical" isn't "silly" though. I find it wierd and don't much think it's true (which is again not neccessarily lore, which is beliefs), but silly? Not a chance in hell.



Not neccessarily. Magic can get in the way of a good story, but the same can be said of anything. And one could likewise say of anything that it enhances the story. it's all in execution. Also, they aren't mutuallu exclusive. You can have moral dillemas, human drama, and world-destroying power all in ne story. I've seen it done.

If you seriously consider the power storytelling has, you'll realize it's magic in any world. Now take that power and place it in a world where if you tell a story enough times, with sufficient vivacity, it becomes a shadow of truth.

And CHIM is not illogical at all. CHIM is coherent because of the kind of world Aurbis is. And I don't mean that Aurbis is a world that allows for contradictions. CHIM is related to the principles which hold Aurbis together and animated it. To the extent Aurbis exists at all, CHIM is real, and coherent.

CHIM is a horrible plot device. It cannot be defined; is not ruled by logic; and can be eternally changed. I tend to agree that magic in stories is what allows the writers to get around plot-holes sometimes. However, magic in the Elder Scrolls universe is actually very well defined and can be used in plot to great effect. However, the process of attaining CHIM is murky and unknowable. This should be fixed in the next TES game.

There is no joy or value in CHIM if it is not logical. On these forums the idolization of CHIM is something of a cult activity by those who enjoy being blind, and enjoy dropping acid, and enjoy being at the top of Lore-Meister Mountain. Instead, by worshipping something as worthless as CHIM they reveal that what they actually have is not prowess in lore, but a deficiency in it.

If someone http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1034626&view=findpost&p=14988984 you what CHIM is, you should not spend several pages ignoring their post or http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1034626&view=findpost&p=14988998 of their question. You should simply answer that you do not know because the information doesn't exist.

Edit: Later in the thread, I decide I sound like a zealot here. Good fun!

Logic is a thing of mind; myth, of the heart.

Myth isn't enjoyable if it's a bunch of nonsensical crap.

Edit: But I know what you "mean". And yes, in that sense I agree with you. Not everything you take in must make sense for you to enjoy it. But it helps if you think it can make sense if given the proper context, position, or information.

Chim is fairly well described. It takes some time to figure it out and understand the context but if it was easy for us, so would it be for people in Tamriel. Now while I disagree with your assessment, as you describe it now it seems to be a matter of taste which is rather personal. I haven't seen any worship going on, I think you should elaborate more here.

Anyway, without any of the required prior knowledge, http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=550458. It is what makes your characters come alive to you. Now you know what Chim is, but do you understand it?

This isn't an answer. This is a distorted non-Answer.

Edit:
Let me pose a question so that someone may answer it and quell all of my hatred for CHIM-
If you were walking from Balmora to Caldera and you tripped over a potion of "Quality CHIM" which has the effect of "CHIM on self for 60 seconds", then what exactly would you be able to do in the game that you could not do before if you drank said bottle of "Quality CHIM"?

Edit 2:

I'm referring only to those who use CHIM as an explanation for something in TES universe that could be explained by other means. I was, perhaps, a bit too zealous in my wording :twirl:

Well, this question HAS been asked 1000 times. And it's been answered numerous times in this thread.

He answered like that because you're only going to get an answer when you start looking it up on your own. It's also more fun that way.

Turn Cyrodiil back into a jungle.












...please? :hehe: