Reading through some CHIM threads and stuff on TIL, I've been finding myself thinking about how ridiculous the idea of CHIM is. I know most Lore people worship the idea of CHIM and seem to love dropping it as a buzz word just for the sake of it, but honestly, am I the only one who finds the whole concept behind it ridiculous? I mean, if you're able to manipulate the world and do whatever you want, then why didnt Vivec just make Dagoth Ur in Morrowind disappear, and make himself ruler of Mundus? Instead, he sat alone in his Palace waiting for the Nerevarine to come along and do something because Vivec, even though he supposedly had CHIM, could do bugger-all.

Am I the only one who thinks this way about CHIM and by extension, most of the other 'weird and ridiculous' parts of ES?

Say hi to Zero-Sum for me .

IMO, seeing as Nerevarine was Ruling King during the Morrowind MQ, I feel Vehk couldn't do anything. Either that, or Vehk couldn't do anything because of Prophecy. And since we're on the subject of uber save-alls and whatnot, why wouldn't Vivec (or Talos, who also had CHIM), just create some sort of magnificent artifice that protected everyone in Morrowind from any sort of threat at all? Better yet, why didn't he just transport Morrowind to Aetherius?? Because the idea of CHIM is a sort of contentment with life mixed with a bit of divine salvation as well. At least in my perspective.

You should probably do a great deal of reading in Vehk's Teaching, the relevant Sermons, and the Loveletter. Maybe even http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/plato/symposiu.htm&ei=6faZSqGkMMqJ8QbHoZHGAQ&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&usg=AFQjCNG5DZkLFjYu6ksJjBnV8yu2w8dJPw.

Nalion will probably be in shortly to school ya a bit concerning CHIM and the Morrowind MQ.

I didn't mind Vivec's CHIM that much. I too have often wondered why he has been relatively incapable of providing any divine intervention for his people. I was more surprised that the Tribunal could not successfully raid Red Mountain. I understood that maintaining the Ghostfence drained them of strength, but all-in-all, if they proceeded more carefully, it wouldn't have been that difficult. Or could it?

Maybe the number of 6th House enemies is cut down ingame for technical purposes, and the ALMSIVI were up against entire armies whenever they attempted to secure the heart, but it seems like in the end they did not care much about Dagoth Ur's expanding power. They seemed to just adopt the mindset, "oh well, nothing we can do about it, let's be happy with what's left of our powers for as long as we can." I do believe it has a lot to do with the Prophecy. Reading into Vivec's Plans to Defeat Dagoth-Ur, it seems as if they have been waiting for you more than anything.

Back on the general discussion of CHIM and its use, I hated Talos. Bethesda basically has been using it as an excuse for everything that's lore-questionable in Oblivion. Not to mention the entire reverence of the Ninth Divine is annoying in and of itself. You rarely hear prayers go to Stendarr or Julianos, it's always Akatosh or Talos.

Talos has really eclipsed the significance of all the other Divines and made the Imperials a lot more boring to listen to.

Praise be the Eight Divines.

Well, are you surprised? Look at what he is and what he's done. The fact he began the Third Era alone earns him a magnanimous amount of renown

Maybe CHIM has its limits, or maybe it has to be used carefully to prevent going Zero-Sum.

I abhor the idea that you can "lose" CHIM; you get it or you don't. I doubt you could have such a revelation such as the one CHIM implies and then just think a thought to the complete opposite of that afterwards. The Ruling King idea I put forth is probably the only "limit" there is on CHIM. I want Nalion to hurry and show up... <_<

Apparently you need to pay more attention to what you read. Vivec didn't have CHIM during Morrowind, so naturally he couldn't use those powers against Ur.

You also apparently don't understand CHIM, despite your thinking it ridiculous (or perhaps you think it ridiculous because you don't understand it). Becoming ruler of Mundus is pittance to having CHIM, its like asking why God doesn't use his power to become the Mayor of New York. If you want still another reason why he wouldn't exercise power, read http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/monomyth.shtml#Cyrodiilic and compare the state of the Daedra to one with CHIM, controlling everything is boring...

Not quite, achieving it is only half the battle, maintaining it is the important part. Why do you think its regarded "as a Crowned Tower that threatens to break apart at the slightest break in concentration."

Touche. I always forget that part...

What is CHIM?

He can't do that because the story says so. It would be boring if Vivec could just wave his hand and all Morrowind's problems went away. That's the nature of fiction, it can give up things like logic for the sake of the rule of drama. Because without it, your work will be pretty boring. So if you have a physical god in the story who could just solve problems with the wave of a hand, you have to find a way to keep that character from doing so. good writers will be able to think of a way to do this that makes sense, but not everyone has enough skill to do that.

Although, I find a lot of the weirder aspects of the Elder Scrolls lore pretty silly, so I just ignore them, and pretend that Nirn is a spinning ball of rock floating in a massive space, circling around a giant ball of plasma, which is the same as the other balls of plasma that are the stars, except it's closer to Nirn, and anyone in the lore who claims otherwise just lacks the scientific knowledge to comprehend this, which is just what it sounds like.

I don't see too much a point to taking the time to learn anything about a fictional world if we feel we have to cut out everything that separates it from the real world. It defeats the entire purpose in the lore itself: to create its own, distinct world that, while it has traces of familiarity from our own, is unique. A planet being an infinite plane of a god, made to look that way due to the fact mortals can't take the real thing, is a lot more unique than nine big chunks of rock floating around a ball of plasma.

Oh, gooday 'scientific' is back in vogue.

Because, naturally, balls of plasma radiate excess creatia.

Quote for win. :nod:

...It was a rhetorical question. This was the point I was making.

That's probably the hundredth time this has happened, lol.

Is my question going to be answered?

Your city and its multitude. Must your Hortator tell you these things in your age, silly Tribune?

a ) I need my beauty sleep.
b ) Next time, make sure you have prepared the proper ritual for summoning me: coffee, booze and girls.
c ) I'm sounding like MK now, do I?

If the original poster has read the previous threads about CHIM already, then he probably has seen my posts as well. My opinion hasn't changed since then. To the actual question at hand though - I already quoted this tidbit elsewhere: "Welcome to CHIMville: Pop 1". But here's another bit:
There's a difference between those who talk about how ugly Mudcrabs are and those who go out killing Mudcrabs, make potions from their ingredients and sell them for tons of money.

CHIM does have relevance. The beauty in it is that you don't even have to know about it, don't have to like it and even outright ignore it, but you can still have fun.

Maybe Vivec was precluded him from doing away with Dagoth, who went through more or less the same apotheosis as he at Red Mountain?

Chim isn't about power. http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=550458.

It's quite like some actors that have played the same role for years still think, "Pipi would do this right now". Or where dikeens would walk up to a mirror and his face would contort while he spoke to himself before continuing to write, as if the characters from his stories were haunting him. I'd give a source but they're both from a Readers Digest.

So if you're ever in that position where you could whip-out Dagoth Ur in less then 7.5 minutes, why do it? It's boring.



Worse actually -the other way around- none of the Divines have been properly fleshed out. The system they exist in has been to great detail but other then KotN the Imperial view hasn't been elaborated on.

CHIM, silly? No sillier than any other detail of TES and, as the saying goes, in for a penny, in for a pound. Although I do sometimes find it a little bemusing how serious people sometimes take these discussions of fictional metaphysics. I think they might sometimes benefit from a little more levity than they are sometimes treated with.

It's all about the Godhead.

Ha, so you're saying that despite the suffering of the Dunmer people Vivec wouldn't kill Ur because it'd be too easy for him?

Why didn't Frodo just ride one of those big eagles to Mordor and drop the ring in Mount Doom hundreds of feet in the air?

He didn't say because it'd be too easy, he said it'd be boring... and I see you skipped my post.