Who is Lorkhan? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:18 am

I truly pity any newbie who shows up here eager to understand the lore...

I truly pity a newbie who shows up here.

I've done my best, I believe.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:50 am

I truly pity a newbie who shows up here.

I've done my best, I believe.

Adanorcil you did an excellent job. Honestly if you look at all the Lorkhan posts I have not seen any one who broke it down the way you have. So I want to give credit where it is due. It was fantastic of you to take the time.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:06 am

Whatcha want answered, Merari? We do try to be nice most of the time.

Pentirei don't give a false impression...there are Sharks and Piranha in this water

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 2:33 pm

Let it go. Everyone knows how you feel on this topic and you stand alone. Adanorcil gave you a post that should have stopped your incessant [censored]ing on this subject. Yet, you continue to bring nothing to the table. Either formulate some new ideas or learn to accept the Akatosh/Lorkhan relationship as a real possibility.

This is the kind of comment you hear from someone who, who....pause.

Dude you need to question what you read, otherwise your understanding will remain superficial.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:42 pm

Forgive my attitude from earlier, but I stand by what I said. Adanorcil makes a compelling case so what are your thoughts on what he had to say? Seeing as how you still have your doubts.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:32 am

Forgive my attitude from earlier, but I stand by what I said. Adanorcil makes a compelling case so what are your thoughts on what he had to say? Seeing as how you still have your doubts.

Adanorcil's post was indeed a breath of fresh air.

Previously what I understood people to be saying was that Lorkhan and Akatosh were one single entity that was using both names. This is what I disagreed with. (In fact I am sure some people still think this)

His post clarified that Lorkhan and Akatosh do have separate identities. They are identical twins, who can swap roles and functions with each other, but still separate. This explanation makes more sense. The lore starts to add up.

You asked about my questions...well there are still some, particularly with respect to Tiber Septim.

They say Tiber 'Mantled' Lorkhan and became a divine. A divine responsible for War and Governance. However Lorkhan is the Space god (in opposition to his twin who is the god of time) If you Mantle a god, the god will walk like you and vice versa.

So why isn't Lorkhan changed by the mantling? Or conversely how did Tiber Septim become the god of war and governance when the deity he mantled was in charge of space?

...Just so you know, some people are saying Tiber Septim is Lorkhan and is also Akatosh, and they are serious about this. So Duality goes out the window and Akatosh becomes Okurin Meta (Three in One)....which in turn opens a bigger can of worms about how many other Et Ada have three aspects...

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:40 am

They say Tiber 'Mantled' Lorkhan and became a divine. A divine responsible for War and Governance. However Lorkhan is the Space god (in opposition to his twin who is the god of time) If you Mantle a god, the god will walk like you and vice versa.

So why isn't Lorkhan changed by the mantling? Or conversely how did Tiber Septim become the god of war and governance when the deity he mantled was in charge of space?

...Just so you know, some people are saying Tiber Septim is Lorkhan and is also Akatosh, and they are serious about this. So Duality goes out the window and Akatosh becomes Okurin Meta (Three in One)....which in turn opens a bigger can of worms about how many other Et Ada have three aspects...

You are reading a lot of things far too literally. Stop thinking in terms of strict divine spheres of influence; you'll only run into walls of semantics. Septim is not the 'god of' this or that', he is simply venerated as the patron of war and statesmanship because he was a general beyond compare and an emperor like no other. Lorkhan is called a space god, because he made a place for things to exist in, just as his counterpart made time for things to exist in. He was/is a powerful being at the beginning of the world, not just a member of some bureaucracy. He's god of everything, if anything.

When the emperor-to-be mantled Lorkhan (or any other name), that doesn't mean he somehow inherited Lorkhan's divine portfolio. (If such a thing existed.) Instead, he simply assumed (that is, repeated) the role of that god in the greater pattern of the world. And contrary to what you think, that he means he also assumed the role of Akatosh, because it is impossible to do one without the other. It can even be gleaned from that portfolio you quoted up there: war and governance. He's both that roaring terror Ysmir-Wulfharth-Shor-Lorkhan at the front of battle and the glorious leader at the heart of the Empire, the rebel and the king. He even has two names: Talos, the Stormcrown and Tiber Septim, the Emperor. Read the http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-arcturian-heresy and try to keep track of who is who. Notice how Tiber frequently disagrees with his Lorkhanic side. Notice how the identies and their markers flip around all the time between various people.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:03 am

Previously what I understood people to be saying was that Lorkhan and Akatosh were one single entity that was using both names. This is what I disagreed with. (In fact I am sure some people still think this)

I think I can quite confidently assure you that no-one thinks that, or ever did. Just a miscommunication I suppose.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:03 am

So Duality goes out the window and Akatosh becomes Okurin Meta (Three in One)

Two in one, a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-lunar-lorkhan, seen below.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim. They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

Tiber transcends the warring halves, but can't hold them together. He's split in two for his failure.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:16 am

Two in one, a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-lunar-lorkhan, seen below.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim. They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

Tiber transcends the warring halves, but can't hold them together. He's split in two for his failure.

Alduin and Akatosh are the exact same being with different faces.

Lorkhan is a separate being

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:01 am

[Asked and answered]

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:36 pm

Alduin and Akatosh are the exact same being with different faces.

They were until the Selectives managed to shatter the Dragon. Auriel is a staunchly anti-man aedra, while Akatosh helped defend Man's empire.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:03 am

Alduin and Akatosh are the exact same being with different faces.

I don't know if you want to use language like "exact" in regards to this. Those two gods represent very different things but come from the same theological concept so exact isn't a good way to describe it. If you want to make it even more complicated you can throw Auri-El into the mix.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:24 am

They were until the Selectives managed to shatter the Dragon. Auriel is a staunchly anti-man aedra, while Akatosh helped defend Man's empire.

I thought the dancing on the tower was to shatter Auri-el into a pro-men aspect?

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:00 am

I thought the dancing on the tower was to shatter Auri-el into a pro-men aspect?

They did. Akatosh. But I've always held the quaint (read as: stupid) belief that his other aspect had to go somewhere, and we get Alduin.

Of course, TES religious lore is a pile of gobbeldegoop. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Akatosh headbutt Alduin. I really wouldn't.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:26 pm

They did. Akatosh. But I've always held the quaint (read as: stupid) belief that his other aspect had to go somewhere, and we get Alduin.

Alduin and Auri-El existed first.. Akatosh is the newcomer. In addition, Akatosh came before the Selectives danced on the tower.

Alessia created Akatosh as part of a compromise between Nords' and Mer's beliefs, but the Selectives took offense that their "new" God of Time was based on the Elvish pantheon at all, and so tried to disprove that Akatosh was Auri-El. They failed at that, and then channeled the Aurbis to forcibly remove Auri-El's influence from Akatosh, which is when the tower appeared and [censored] got crazy for the next 1000+ years. Whether the Selectives succeeded or failed at what they were trying to do is unknown, or even if they failed, what changed as a result of their antics.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:36 am

[Asked and answered]

I see Proweler stopped by,...these guys truly know whats going on

I remember three people who would get into the details when I started playing the games...

Proweler, Nalion, Adanorcil

At the time Proweler was already an oracle

That said... can anyone give us a blow by blow breakdown of Shor son of Shor? I tried and this is how far I got...

anolysis: Shor son of Shor

And the awful fighting ended again.

"Kyne's shout brought our tribe back to the mountaintop of Hrothgar, and even our recent dead rode in on the wind of her breathing, for there had been no time to fashion a proper retreat. Their corpses fell among us as we landed and we looked on them in confusion, shaken as we were by this latest battle in the war of twilight. The chieftains of the other tribes still held their grudge against our own, Shor son of Shor; more, they had united finally to destroy us and used skin-magic to trick us into disarray.

Kyne uses Th'um (the voice) to teleport members of a warring faction back to the top of High Hrothgar. I believe this to be the tribe of humanity. Since mortals were created by the Aedra, they, have aspects of each of those creators among their group. That is why you see Kyne, Dibella and Mara in this tribe. This group is led by Shor and have just fought a loosing battle against the Aedra. This fight is a recurring fight and it happens at the twilight of each Kalpa. If the Aedra win, Alduin shows up and the world is consumed

"Shor was disgusted with the defeat, and disgusted more when reminded by Jhunal that our withdrawal had been wise, for we were outnumbered eight to one. Shor took on the form of his Totem then, which he used to better shape his displeasure, rather than to shout it aloud and risk more storm-death. His shield thanes, the brothers Stuhn and Tsun, bowed their heads, collecting the spears and swords and wine-knives Shor threw about the broken pillars of the easternmost sky-temple. The rest of us looked away and to our own, not even to acknowledge the thunderclap that signaled our Queen's arrival, who stepped in from the tunnel of her own breath last.

Shor can barely contain his rage at this retreat even though it was an unbalanced eight to one fight. If he shouts there will be deaths so he throws things around instead. As the rest of the group cowers, Kyne is the last to be teleported in from the battle

"Kyne had taken the head of Magnar, the jarl that betrayed the weakness of our spear-lines and fled the field. Shor shook his scaled mane. "That isn't Magnar," he said, "Magnar, I fear, fell at sunrise and became replaced by mirrors. The other chieftains are using our forms to lead us astray."

Shor quickly recognises that the hostile Aedra have used impersonation to exploit weaknesses within his ranks

"And then Shor walked away from his War-Wife to enter the cave that led to the Underworld. He needed to take counsel with his father yet again. "Our chieftain loses heart," Dibella said, Bed-Wife of Shor, hefting another body onto the corpse pile some of us were making, "And so goes to the speak to one that has none anymore. Mirrors, indeed, and in that I see no logic."

The monomyth clearly states that:

The magical beings of Mythic Aurbis live for a long time and have complex narrative lives, creating the patterns of myth. These are spirits made from bits of the immortal polarity. The first of these was Akatosh the Time Dragon, whose formation made it easier for other spirits to structure themselves. Gods and demons form and reform and procreate.

Aedra can form and reform and procreate. So Shor may be a true offspring, form or reformation of Lorkhan.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:30 am

They did. Akatosh. But I've always held the quaint (read as: stupid) belief that his other aspect had to go somewhere, and we get Alduin.

Of course, TES religious lore is a pile of gobbeldegoop. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Akatosh headbutt Alduin. I really wouldn't.

Well it's more like Alduin and Auriel are simply the same thing in a literal (non-mythic) sense, the difference comes from the hardcoe Aldmer saying the end of the world is a good thing and humans having a mite of a disagreement with that. Akatosh is a mannish construct of time as an everlasting force instead of a destructive one. He is the new belief of an endless world made literal. While he is still Time personified and therefore the same as Alduin, he is not time as a hostile force and is therefore "only" the same on a mythic scale/

So basically, they could fight each other and probably would if you could get them in the same room.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:28 pm

The monomyth clearly states that:

The magical beings of Mythic Aurbis live for a long time and have complex narrative lives, creating the patterns of myth. These are spirits made from bits of the immortal polarity. The first of these was Akatosh the Time Dragon, whose formation made it easier for other spirits to structure themselves. Gods and demons form and reform and procreate.

Aedra can form and reform and procreate. So Shor may be a true offspring, form or reformation of Lorkhan.

Offspring? No, not in the sense you seem to be thinking. Shor is to Lorkhan what Alduin is to Akatosh.
By the way, on the topic of Lorkhan and Aka, what to you think "immortal polarity" refers to in that passage of the Monomyth you find so clear?

On topic, the numbering of forces as "eight to one" surely has some significance, but damned if I know what it is.
I'm puzzled by the whole deal with Magnus as well, frankly.

» Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:26 pm

Offspring? No, not in the sense you seem to be thinking. Shor is to Lorkhan what Alduin is to Akatosh.
By the way, on the topic of Lorkhan and Aka, what to you think "immortal polarity" refers to in that passage of the Monomyth you find so clear?

On topic, the numbering of forces as "eight to one" surely has some significance, but damned if I know what it is.
I'm puzzled by the whole deal with Magnus as well, frankly.

In my mind the immortal polarity refers to Anu and Padomay. In their contact the Arubis was created filled with infinite particles of Anu's IS and Padomay's IS NOT

Each Et Ada formed from this stew, with an Anuic or Padomaic alignment