Who's right? Eden or Autumn? : Fallout 3

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:33 pm

I personally hated Eden he kills his own soldiers with sentry bots, lies to you and tells you he will give a place in the Enclave, I think he also lies to you about about the FEV in the water not being able to hurt you because you were born in a vault . He also uses his soldiers as a test of the players abiliity to survive and thrive he clearly has no respect for human life. I liked Autumn instead of killing you at vault 87 and taking the GECK off of you he or his tesla soldiers drop a stun grenade and stuns you and he asks one of his guards if the player will be unharmed from the stun grenade. I also remember Autumn ordering the cease of manufacturing of the new duraframe eyebots ED-E is an example in turn for the new Hell-fire power armor for the soldiers so clearly he probably doesn t trust most of the machines in the Enclave.

Autumn's no better. He got all everyone under his command killed in his delueded persuit of a personal fantasy and is ultimately responsible for the Enclave's destruction in Fallout 3. And I don't re-call him saying anythign of the sort about the player well-being, certainly not because he cares; he killed the scientist in the chamber to make a point to James and he kills the Lone Wanderer if you if give up the code. He's as ruthless and un-caring as Eden, abandonning Raven Rock so he can start his own little project after he stirs all the [censored] there, his men all fighting to the death against Prime only for him then to potentially accept an offer of surrender and disappear. He's a coward, a traitor and an incompetant selfish [censored]. And if Autumn did personally discommision the entire Eyebot project just because he didn't like machines he's also un-professional, biased and again incredibly selfish; though I don't believe that was the reason for his decision anyway.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:12 am

James killed himself. Seriously why don't people get that? Augustus didn't even want to kill everyone and the Enclave were the ones that got project purity working :tops:

lololol They did nothing to get project purity working.

And as someone who has lost their father, someone who also loved water just as much as James. I was obligated to get everyone involved in his death and to finally make his dreams come true. Still got to level 30 whilst being very evil… So got the endings I aimed for.

» Fri May 04, 2012 6:33 am

lololol They did nothing to get project purity working.

Yeah they did, they installed the GECK and fixed everything else that was broken, or did you think changing some fuses and throwing a switch was the real reason that they never got the Purifier to work 20 years ago? James was at the purifier for like what an hour before the Enclave showed up? He didn't do anything to fix it.

The guy flooded the chamber he was in with radiation, he wasn't shot and he wasn't going to be - Autumn didn't even want to kill everyone.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:46 am

Yeah they did, they installed the GECK and fixed everything else that was broken, or did you think changing some fuses and throwing a switch was the real reason that they never got the Purifier to work 20 years ago? James was at the purifier for like what an hour before the Enclave showed up? He didn't do anything to fix it.

The guy flooded the chamber he was in with radiation, he wasn't shot and he wasn't going to be - Autumn didn't even want to kill everyone.

That is so, but who got the G.E.C.K. in the first place???? I'm pretty sure the Lone Wanderer would have figured it out with the help of the other scientists and the BoS helping.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:13 am

lololol They did nothing to get project purity working.

They did, but they would have had it operating sooner if James hadn't been a complete moron and sabotaged the damn thing.

The sweet irony here is that James is really responsible for his own son's death (well until Broken Steel of course) because of his own brazen foolishness.

Jame's death is the responsibility of James himself. No-one else's.

"You killed my father!"-The LW

"Actually your father killed himself."- Col. Autumn

I chuckled at that dialogue, because its completely true.

That is so, but who got the G.E.C.K. in the first place????

The Enclave was en-route to pick it up when they ran into the LW.

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:31 am

They did, but they would have had it operating sooner if James hadn't been a complete moron and sabotaged the damn thing.

The sweet irony here is that James is really responsible for his own son's death (well until Broken Steel of course) because of his own brazen foolishness.

Jame's death is the responsibility of James himself. No-one else's.

"You killed my father!"-The LW

"Actually your father killed himself."- Col. Autumn

I chuckled at that dialogue, because its completely true.

The Enclave was en-route to pick it up when they ran into the LW.

I remember col. Autumn saying something really disrespectful about my father… So in turn I could not for the life of me ever let him leave the rotunda alive.

Also throwing a stun grenade at me is pretty rude, at least he didn't put a slave collar on me.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:14 am

I remember col. Autumn saying something really disrespectful about my father…

Probably because James is quite worthy of disrespectful insults after his actions at the purifier.

Grade-A Darwin award material for him.

Also throwing a stun grenade at me is pretty rude, at least he didn't put a slave collar on me.

Considering the LW was carrying a valuable piece of equipment, I'd say its completely reasonable.

» Fri May 04, 2012 4:03 am

Neither one is really a bad plan when you come down to it, they just believe in handling the "problem of the wastes" in different ways. I support Eden's however.

Lets use an anology. Say you have a picture that you are drawing that you screwed up. How do you fix it?

Autumn's plan is similar to taking your pencil and attempting to fix the drawing without starting over, you weave in and out of lines, and erase things where necessary.

Eden's plan is simply to grab a new piece and start completely from scratch. Its going to be a lot more hard work, but ultimately you might end up with a better picture.

Thus, Autumn's plan is to attempt to integrate the Enclave and the wastelanders into one group, while protecting them from the creatures of the wasteland and such.

Eden's plan is simply to create a blank slate and give the Enclave a homeland with nothing to hinder them.

Also, keep in mind that Eden's plan is not necessarily "evil." The effect of the modified FEV virus isn't going to affect much more than the immediate area of the CW (perhaps some of the east coast but that's about it). Not only that, but in the end his plan ultimately kills more "bad" things than it does innocent wastelanders because it targets mutants (centaurs, supermutants, etc.) as well as anything affected by radiation (which includes hostile wastelanders like the BOS, Talon Company, raiders, and the like).

The vast majority of the population of the CW is things that are either 1. militarily opposed to the Enclave or 2. hostile to everyone (mutants, raiders etc.) The minority of the pop are wastelanders like those living at Megaton.

In which case makes Eden's plan simply an act of total war. There's going to be collateral damage. Much like carpet bombing a heavily populated city.

Because in the end he's still his President perhaps.

"I am sworn to protect the Presidency, the chain of command must be upheld, I wouldn't expect you to understand."

Although Bethesda's writing makes it all screwed up of course.

One thing I can't understand about Autumn's plan is how he expects Enclave soldiers (who gladly shoot up wastelanders) to simply go along and suddenly become comrades to a bunch of people they were taught from birth to hate.

Seems wishful thinking to me.

Doesn't matter though, either plan would have been preferable if Autumn and Eden could have gotten along and if the Enclave had actually won.

Bravo! Well said.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:53 am

Enclave soldier boyz make da best slaves. They so fiesty.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:41 pm

Enclave soldier boyz make da best slaves. They so fiesty.

Lmao. Now that, is funny.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:17 am

Enclave soldier boyz make da best slaves. They so fiesty.

They make good slaves, but pretty sure they're not the best hard workers of the bunch.

» Fri May 04, 2012 8:51 am

The stories messed up with the Enclave.
They don't even let you side with them properly.

Autmumns plan is good. Get the purifier, control the wasteland.
He does'nt want to kill everyone. He wants to control them and ally with them.
Would have worked if they had let you side with him.

And the plan from Eden has merits.
The dna is messed up, no more ghouls means no more feral ghouls. No more supermutants could be good. Theres 2 in the game who are nice. The rest are crazy.
The radiation would go down over time, less ghouls would be made anyway.
And the dna most definately needs fixing.
It kills more bad stuff than good.
No one is going to miss supermutants, mutants, centaurs, and feral ghouls.
And a load of bad wastelanders are going to die with it. No one is going to miss the Talon Company, raiders, etc.
The wastelands going to look a lot better.

If they had'nt butchered the game to force you to side with the BoS, it would have worked.

I always side with Eden. :smile:

I wish you could get them to work together.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:18 am

I personally hated Eden he kills his own soldiers with sentry bots, lies to you and tells you he will give a place in the Enclave, I think he also lies to you about about the FEV in the water not being able to hurt you because you were born in a vault .

But Eden is unaware that the Lone Wanderer was born in Project Purity, so isn't a pure radiation free human. So he's wrong when he says that, but not a lie.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:40 am

I'm a little late for the party but I support Autumn for two reasons: legal and scientific.

Legal reasoning is simply that he considers the US to be still its old self and frankly I have not heard of the Enclave relinquishing claims on the mainland. I am with Autumn in that all Wastelanders are US citizens and have the right to be protected by the government.

Scientific reason is simply that the pure strain humans are history. The Enclave could never repopulate the country let alone the planet with their remaining people and since restoring the old world is their goal I can't see any logic in FEV plan (both Richardson or Eden). The genetic bottleneck the Enclave would have to pass would certainly result to inbreeding and death. Humanity is known to have once been reduced to 10,000 but it took thousands of years to rebuild the species and we not have a truckload of genetic defects from various ancient sources.

Autumn is in control during Fallout 3 and you can see how he would handle the Wasteland. His orders are to gene-scan everyone and give free water to those who pass and burn those who fail (only Ghouls fail the test). The survivors are given protection and so long as they don't interfere with the Enclave's mission they can go about their lives. In a few short days Autumn contributes more to CW's stability than everyone else in the past two centuries.

Do a good deed and spare Autumn. He is the real hero of Fallout 3.

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:43 am

The Enclave could never repopulate the country let alone the planet with their remaining people and since restoring the old world is their goal I can't see any logic in FEV plan (both Richardson or Eden).

Personally I don't see that as much of a problem with regards to Eden, since in my mind Eden's plan is addressing only the immediate problem of the Capital Wasteland as a homeland for the Enclave to begin rebuilding. The FEV virus in the water purifier wouldn't affect anything other than the CW and perhaps a few areas outside of it on the East Coast. Certainly it wouldn't have reached the majority of the country. The ending slides after all, only mention the CW as being affected.

I have to agree that Richardson's plan was a bit extreme, in the sense that I'm at least skeptical that the Project was truly a good course of action when in would be the cause of so much loss to life. Eden's plan doesn't quite go to that extreme and instead focuses primarily on mutation (animal and otherwise) in a specific area as an issue rather than just humanoid mutation in general across the world. We don't know what's in Europe for example, so to wipe out all humanoid life without considering the possibility that there could be progressive societies in the world seems like quite an assumption to make.

Eden, in my view, is correct in believing that if a full occupation of the CW is going to occur, the threat of hostile mutations must be completely eliminated. Otherwise a lot of resources and manpower is going to be lost in the process of "taming" the wild (including raiders, as well). There's quite a few Enclave outposts that were destroyed by attacks just as an example. While I don't think Autumn is necessarily wrong, I think Eden's plan is a safer bet for the security of the Enclave. He just doesn't include the wastelanders under that "security net."

With the Enclave having a mutation-free and threat-free land, they can begin to form a Enclave state on the East coast. Its not going to mean the immediate restoration of the entire country, but its going to allow for at least partial reconstruction. Just as House isn't going to be able to restore the entire United States, but he can restore a portion of it.

With the Enclave state formed, the NCR or whoever can do whatever the hell they want on the otherside of the coast. No need to bother with them if the Enclave doesn't need to.

» Fri May 04, 2012 10:52 am

I don't believe the Enclave's goal was to ever repopulate America, let alone the rest of the world. Augustus on the other hand wanted the Enclave to lead the people of the Wasteland in the rebuilding process.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:58 am

Richardson's plan is a bit weird since while he talks about FEV wiping out everything outside the Enclave and vaults, he also mentions how "America will once again be the world policeman". This is quite odd to me since how America can be a police when there is no one else alive.

It's a good point to evaluate the extent of Eden's FEV. He does not specify how vast the destruction will be but will say that "anyone affected by mutation will be eliminated" and it seems the only change he made to the virus is to make it waterborne.

Assuming Eden's FEV works only in a limited area then I suppose it just falls on preference. I would imagine Autumn forming some sort of collaborator militia from folks like Nathan and basically just anyone willing to enforce law and fight mutants for money and water. The actual Enclave personnel would act as officers, instructors and other low-risk situations. I also feel that if the Wastelanders would be successfully integrated into the Enclave, paying a bit of blood now would save the Enclave from a lot of trouble later on. Not only would other settlements be wary of these folks who just happened to be the only survivors of a killer virus, but also an Autumnist Enclave could immediately start reconstruction of the Capital using the locals as cheap labor.

And of course whether it's Eden or Autumn having his way, Barnaky leading Midwest BoS could be a most resourceful ally. Under Enclave command and using their insignia of course.

Now that I am talking about these things again I feel so much eagerness to restart my Enclave mod projects... For the third time

Slow progress but they're both playable alphas so far...

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:10 am

Autumn's the better choice over Eden. Eden thinks too much like a tyrant and not from a calculating evil sort of position. With Autumn in charge, it's easier to get rid of the affected without it getting the rest of the people angry at the Enclave. Eden can't hide a massacre like Autumn could.

» Fri May 04, 2012 12:04 pm

i think that if autumn never existed, the enclave would be much better, autumn seems to be a bit of a rougue, and imo, he's an ass

i like president eden though, he is rather cool and is the only member of the enclave who actually gives the PC a chance

» Fri May 04, 2012 7:07 am

i think that if autumn never existed, the enclave would be much better, autumn seems to be a bit of a rougue, and imo, he's an ass

i like president eden though, he is rather cool and is the only member of the enclave who actually gives the PC a chance

You clearly haven't even listened to what Autumn has to say. He had a damn good reason to abandon Eden. He apparently knew that Eden suddenly releasing the Lone Wanderer meant something was smelly here, and no doubt Eden would ask the LW to collaborate, so Autumn had to make his move and ensure nothing goes wrong with the Purifier.

Had Eden just let Autumn punch out the code from the Lone Wanderer everyone would be happy. If Eden wants LW with him, just interrupt Autumn before he pulls the trigger (IMO it was incredibly half assed to have Autumn execute the player).

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:32 pm

Neither. You people of Fallout, the wasteland is your fault. Let the irradiated feral ghouls and rad resistant supermutants take over.

» Fri May 04, 2012 3:56 am

Eden, in my view, is correct in believing that if a full occupation of the CW is going to occur, the threat of hostile mutations must be completely eliminated. Otherwise a lot of resources and manpower is going to be lost in the process of "taming" the wild (including raiders, as well).

He's kinda throwing out the baby with the bathwater by literally killing every wastelander. The enclave seems to have enough tech to destroy or seal off Vault 87 which will end the biggest threat. Killing everyone so you can start over from square one seems lazy, even if it's 'efficient'.

» Fri May 04, 2012 2:56 pm

He's kinda throwing out the baby with the bathwater by literally killing every wastelander.

From an objective perspective, the wastelanders haven't done much at all. One town is a slum of a city and the other is a broken down derelict. Their homes are dirty, trashy, and not well kept up. Its been 200 years and they haven't done squat.

In my view, there isn't even a "baby" to throw out with the bathwater.

The enclave seems to have enough tech to destroy or seal off Vault 87 which will end the biggest threat.

Which means you'll still have to go out and kill every individual Supermutant. Then of course, there are the raiders and Talon Company, as well as the slavers, which means more military operations and more lives lost.

Not to mention every hostile beast in the CW.

» Fri May 04, 2012 9:07 am

From an objective perspective, the wastelanders haven't done much at all. One town is a slum of a city and the other is a broken down derelict. Their homes are dirty, trashy, and not well kept up. Its been 200 years and they haven't done squat.

Does that really justify murdering all of them? From an objective perspective what has the enclave really done in all of that time other than hide in bunkers and conduct nefarious experiments?

Which means you'll still have to go out and kill every individual Supermutant. Then of course, there are the raiders and Talon Company, as well as the slavers, which means more military operations and more lives lost.

Not to mention every hostile beast in the CW.

Since the supermutants cannot reproduce they'll die off. The BOS is already killing them off. Add in the enclave and they're toast.

If living conditions improve in the wasteland less people will choose to become raiders and current raiders will give up the lifestyle like Jericho. The Talon Company could be bought off - you'd assume - although their motivations are never explained in the game. I'd assume bands of armed men can handle Yao Guai and Deathclaws - they do on the West Coast.

» Fri May 04, 2012 1:12 pm

From an objective perspective, the wastelanders haven't done much at all. One town is a slum of a city and the other is a broken down derelict. Their homes are dirty, trashy, and not well kept up. Its been 200 years and they haven't done squat.

In my view, there isn't even a "baby" to throw out with the bathwater.

Still, the Enclave has no future without them. Even if FEV was used locally the Enclave would still keep finding only tribal villages and such and actual factions like the Pitt are too large to be taken over with what the Enclave has left.