Supporting the Enclave, I'm not sure who to side with.(even though I can't) I agree with Autumn about the masses flocking to the Enclave for protection and order. I also agree with spreading the FEV virus killing all mutation as Eden said. I don't care about morals either, I will serve the Enclave with my dying breath.
By the way, I sided with Eden every time. I'm just saying IF I could pick

Augustus was right. Eden was just re-using Richardson's plan from Fallout 2 only watered down (literally) and would have only killed the people of DC. But thanks to Bethesda's bad writing Eden's master plan was a complete dud.

There was also a civil war between Eden and Augustus that Bethesda completely [censored] up. Augustus writes about how he doesn't trust Eden and then rebels against Eden when he finds out Eden was lying to him. Then after Augustus shoots his way out of Raven Rock, he goes back to being Eden's loyal pet. It makes no damn sense at all.

After Eden was destroyed after the event at Raven Rock, I think Autumn's plans were to still keep the Enclave alive. I don't think any way, shape or form, was he trying to stop the LW, because of what LW had done to Eden. I think his own intentions were to keep the Enclave well and alive and LW was just getting in his way of that. Autumn wanted to be in the leadership position. He wasn't trying to keep the Enclave alive in honor of Eden.

With Augustus against killing everyone in the Wasteland and Eden and Raven Rock gone, there is no reason for the LW to attack the Enclave. The Enclave under Augustus were good and wanted nothing but to help.

Augustus didn't trust Eden, he openly rebelled against Eden. Why the hell would he want to honor him?

It's just bad writing all around in Fallout 3.

Neither one is really a bad plan when you come down to it, they just believe in handling the "problem of the wastes" in different ways. I support Eden's however.

Lets use an anology. Say you have a picture that you are drawing that you screwed up. How do you fix it?

Autumn's plan is similar to taking your pencil and attempting to fix the drawing without starting over, you weave in and out of lines, and erase things where necessary.

Eden's plan is simply to grab a new piece and start completely from scratch. Its going to be a lot more hard work, but ultimately you might end up with a better picture.

Thus, Autumn's plan is to attempt to integrate the Enclave and the wastelanders into one group, while protecting them from the creatures of the wasteland and such.

Eden's plan is simply to create a blank slate and give the Enclave a homeland with nothing to hinder them.

Also, keep in mind that Eden's plan is not necessarily "evil." The effect of the modified FEV virus isn't going to affect much more than the immediate area of the CW (perhaps some of the east coast but that's about it). Not only that, but in the end his plan ultimately kills more "bad" things than it does innocent wastelanders because it targets mutants (centaurs, supermutants, etc.) as well as anything affected by radiation (which includes hostile wastelanders like the BOS, Talon Company, raiders, and the like).

The vast majority of the population of the CW is things that are either 1. militarily opposed to the Enclave or 2. hostile to everyone (mutants, raiders etc.) The minority of the pop are wastelanders like those living at Megaton.

In which case makes Eden's plan simply an act of total war. There's going to be collateral damage. Much like carpet bombing a heavily populated city.


Because in the end he's still his President perhaps.

"I am sworn to protect the Presidency, the chain of command must be upheld, I wouldn't expect you to understand."

Although Bethesda's writing makes it all screwed up of course.


One thing I can't understand about Autumn's plan is how he expects Enclave soldiers (who gladly shoot up wastelanders) to simply go along and suddenly become comrades to a bunch of people they were taught from birth to hate.

Seems wishful thinking to me.

Doesn't matter though, either plan would have been preferable if Autumn and Eden could have gotten along and if the Enclave had actually won.

I suggest that you agree with Eden, his actions ultimately better suit the survival of the Enclave; Autumn's plan is a risky and ultimately fruitless gambit, his own personal attempt to change the direction of the Enclave's future because of his own moral mis-givings. Perhaps his desicion to remain with the Enclave and try and change it from the inside should be lauded - to a degree, he could have cut-and-run - by the Enclave's opponents; but not to me his actions got everyone under his command killed in a personal war and that is unforgivable.

Eden's solution ultimately provides a better and more stable future for the Enclave as a people, even if it is under President Eden.

The Enclave follow orders, that's final. They don't have to like it but they aren't going to openly disagree with Autumn. As Eden said, "Most are content with the reassuring voice of authority."

I guess that could be it, he was the president and had been for most of Augustus' life. But still he rebelled and never fully trusted him. I don't understand it, but like he said he doesn't expect us to.



Seems to me that there were far more people in the Enclave that thought the same way as Augustus. If he was the only one, his rebellion wouldn't have worked out so well. If they only blindly follow orders they would have sided with Eden and shot Augustus on site. But many didn't they took up arms against Eden. The battle in Raven Rock was machines vs humans with the Humans siding with Augustus.

Just like how many within the Brotherhood of Steel wanted change and let in wastelanders (people they were raised to mistrust since birth) into their group. I am sure many within the Enclave wanted to change things as well.

Why? Eden never came back over the PA to clarify that Autumn was the enemy did he? For all they knew there's was a danerous wastelander on the loose and the President was being rushed to saftey, nobody question never having seen him for 30 years because of "the reassuring voice of authority"; why should anyone question the actions of the President's loyal confident and their commander - especially in the absense of Eden telling them to arrest Autumn?

That could be it as well but personally I don't like that. The Enclave are people, not mindless machines that just follow orders. They weren't like that in Fallout 2. I don't like how they were depicted in Fallout 3. I can't sympathise with people like that, because they aren't people. No matter how well intended their goals are.

I like to think that many of them wanted change and Augustus went through the ranks over the years and built up support. Like "when the time comes are you going to be on my side?" type deal.

If I was in a base and the robots and defences turned on me for no reason I sure as hell wouldn't be happy about it. Eden didn't come on the radio and say "Kill the Wastelander!" (Or did he?) Which would have been easy to do since he is the only wastelander in the whole base. Instead he just goes all out and guns his own people down?

If they thought he was trying to kill the LW why did they pick up arms and fight back? Why didn't they go "what the [censored] is going on?" I don't care how well trained you are if your own guys start attacking you, you're going to freak out and hesitate. Not just instantly fight back.

How does one "build-up-support" in Raven Rock? Eden is essentially God in that place, able too see and hear everything at once through the Eyecoms on the walls. There's nothing preventing the Enclave from being both people and patriots, this is massively due to Bethesda's incompetance but that aside it's still not an issue. It's the Enclave's culture, think back to the civilains from Fallout 2 - you know, those guys that probably had a better life. They all wore uniformed jumpsuits and considered the evenings community "saftey film" entertainment; clearly didn't stop them from having families, lovers and friends. You just have to use your mind in this case and look past Bethesda's obvious intention to show nothing but the military aspects of the Enclave.

I would disagree, they're professional soldiers and the automated security is on the fritz, they're are civilians and children in this base and the figuring out can be done afterwards. Besides, it's automated security seems a leap in logic to automatically assume that the President is repsonsible; maybe they assumed the wastelander did it, if they weren't preoccupied fighting; doesn't that make sense, wastelander fear and paranoia being what it is? One minute you've got an escaped prisoner near the tech and bio-labs and the next you've got robots on the loose killing people; the, admitedly, incorrect logical conclusion is that the prisoner was somehow involved.

Why would the President give the orders anyway? If an enemy agent was revelled to have infiltrated the White House and could be anywhere as time went on do you think that the President would be giving the orders or being rapidly evacuated by the Secret Service? Makes perfect sense as an explaination for me, there's an intruder, the President is going to be safe, Autumn is temporarily in-charge.

Eden might be like God in Raven Rock but Augustus is their Jesus. Only he talks to Eden and I am sure over decades he could gain alot of support. The people of Raven Rock never see Eden but they see Augustus all the time.

I don't agree that their military discipline would protect them from the shock of the base defences attacking them. Eden is a God right? why would he let that happen? I would have expected them to question that. Not start attacking and running for the exit. If they thought it was a system [censored] up I would imagine they would try to fix it. After all the system is messed up their President is in harm.

IMO nothing is more powerful than betrayal. We can debate who betrayed who first, but at the end of the day if the human Enclave were attacked by base defenses they would have hesitated "Does he want to kill the LW?" "Is the base system screwed up" "Eden trying to kill us?" But they didn't, they picked up their guns and attacked back and did their best to get the hell out of there, seems to me they saw it coming and sided with Augustus.

It seems to me Bethesda was going to have it so we could side with Eden or side with Augustus but then abandoned that plan and left everything in a big mess.

Not true, Lieutenant Williams directly contacts Eden through the Eyecoms with a query. Besides, them never seeing Eden does nothing to stop the cult-of-personality that the machine has cultivated. How many Brotherhood members, cry "For Lyons" on death?


Running for the exit? They were fighting the Security Bots from the first floor up; only Autumn left because he didn't give a [censored] and wanted to initiate his purifier project - more bodies piled up because of his hubris. And I still standby that their military discipline would have them fighting the attacking robots first and questioning their providence. Your forcing a very questioning and suspicious attitude on a people whom in the same game clearly do not display it; they never question the physical presence - or lack thereof - of their leader for generations but as soon as something [censored]s up "he's to blame" and not "he's to be protected"? Eden is not known as a sentient computer, and I doubt that he openly lists "expert computer programmer" as one of his many traits; why would they connect the President to a fault in security protocols programmed into the machines, it anything it's a screw up on the Tech Labs side as opposed to Eden snuck past everyone in the corridors, into the ZAX Mainframe and hacked the bots.

Perhaps. IMO they wanted a Raven Rock battle and could only think of Autumn being a nob as a cause, they also thought that two cliches were the only good way to kill Eden in the end and then promptly handed all writing over to someone else working on the following quest with only a cliftnotes version of what preceeded it.

They actually do. If you listen closely to the human guards outside of Eden's office, one of them cries out "The Robots are going nuts!" In other words, they think its some sort of malfunction. Likely they think the LW has caused a problem and Autumn has been charged with rectifying the situation after Eden has been evacuated.

There's no evidence they were actively taking part in a planned coup by Autumn.


That the wastelanders were the American people?

That wouldn't explain the genetic compliance checkpoints and how they literally shot anyone on sight though. Clearly the Enclave soldiers in gameplay seem to gravitate towards Eden's line of thinking.

Backed up by the exclamations of "For the President" and on death "For Eden....."


Eden didn't exactly order Augustus to be shot though did he?

Well we can all agree that it is a mess of writing. Not well explained at all. It would have been alot easier for Eden to simply say "Kill the Wastelander" rather than kill his own people on mass in the hopes for killing the LW. But then why would he do that if you agree to help? It would then be Augustus trying to kill the LW and Eden defending the LW. So no matter what Eden and Augustus fight one and try to kill you.

Augustus might still see the wasteanders as impure but he sees their value as a work force. Not slaves but as serfs, the lower class or second class. He isn't alone in his thinking. People have left the Enclave. They aren't the Borg, they are individuals with their own personalities. In Fallout 2 they weren't all robotic xenophobes. They trade and use wastelanders for their own goals.

I feel Augustus could have has his own cult of personality, even though it wasn't clearly shown. I really don't like how the Enclave are shown in Fallout 3.

Augustus is the only one that sees Eden. Others may talk to him over a radio, but Augustus alone gets to see him. Also given is rank, he would be right up their with Eden in terms of being idolized.

Oh, God. . .Autumn was one the things I most hated about Fallout 3. A man who does not want to kill everyone with the resources and army to protect people and rebuild society and it was barely mentioned and we could not side with him no matter how much I wanted to.

Yeah, it's called Bethesda's writing staff; they were probably unaware that they'd set-up their crappy black-and-white morality tale like this.

But...but....don't you see? The Brotherhood is clearly the better choice!

Forget that Autumn's plan is essentially the same thing. Damint the Brotherhood should have the purifier! Steel be with you and all that.

Autumn is the best choice.

WHAT? The brotherhood is not the better choice! I don't want your steel either. Long live the Enclave

I was joking of course. I was hoping my large Enclave signature and avatar would make that clear.

Bethesda apparently believed no-one could ever think of not siding with the BOS, because you know, heaven forbid people prefer the Enclave.

I made Eden destroy himself with 50% speech.

Then I killed Autumn for being the reason my Father died.

Only time I've sided with the Enclave was in New Vegas.

**Also, they are both wrong. Dead wrong.

Autumn was the true hero of F3

James killed himself. Seriously why don't people get that? Augustus didn't even want to kill everyone and the Enclave were the ones that got project purity working

I personally hated Eden he kills his own soldiers with sentry bots, lies to you and tells you he will give a place in the Enclave, I think he also lies to you about about the FEV in the water not being able to hurt you because you were born in a vault . He also uses his soldiers as a test of the players abiliity to survive and thrive he clearly has no respect for human life. I liked Autumn instead of killing you at vault 87 and taking the GECK off of you he or his tesla soldiers drop a stun grenade and stuns you and he asks one of his guards if the player will be unharmed from the stun grenade. I also remember Autumn ordering the cease of manufacturing of the new duraframe eyebots ED-E is an example in turn for the new Hell-fire power armor for the soldiers so clearly he probably doesn t trust most of the machines in the Enclave. I wonder what happened to him if you let him live at project purity did he get gunned down by liberty prime and the Brother Hood or did he and his soldiers make a pact with Lyons, they don t mention where he goes if you let him live.