For the record, though I can't deny that racism wasn't a big theme in Oblivion. I'd think Imperials are as diverse a lot as any other race. Let's not forget a certain 3d Era Cyrodiilic Countess had 'special rooms' hidden in her castle aimed at certain non-human parts of the community in a certain southern Cyrodiilic city.

I think the Imperials have the benefit of a mainstream culture that most people whether they're born in Cyrodiil or in the provinces are familiar with and can easily blend into. The downside to this is that they sometimes display a narrowminded ignorance of and lack of understanding for other cultures (in the 'why can't they just be normal like us' sense). Tullius displays some of this as well from what I've seen.
I really should do the Imperial questline when I get home.

I beleive that said room was reserved for Argonian visitors, wasn't it?

Either way, what i generally mean when i say that the Empire is not 'racist' is that they do not activly encourage the mentality that one race is superior to any other. They do, of course, have racists within the Empire. Short of government rune chreche's there no way to deal with that, since your racial ideas are established from your parents at a young age...

Remember the PGE, 1st edition?

PGE 1E is well over 600 years old by the time of Skyrim.

Eh. That was 600 years ago.

But yes, Septim propaganda was pro-Nord and pro-Colovian and anti anyone else. Colvoianization is one reasons (I made up) Nibenean culture is gone.

It was to point out that the Empire had encouraged a racist mentality. There isn't much in the way of more recent evidence to point in either direction on that regard, though, but obviously we've seen racist Imperials in TES4 and TES5, so things still look to be leaning that way. (They've probably had to appear less and less racist officially over time so as to not make their non-human subjects more and more pissed off, but the sentiment is still around either way.)

Racist individuals do not make a racist establishment. As for the pocket guide, that isn't even aproaching an extant representation of the Empire.

By and large, the Empire has worked to smooth over relations between Races. The racism is still there, and can be seen in the general extablishment of Imperial Law without the regard for local cultural diversity, but its burried under a desire for functionality. Unlike in Windhelm, for instance, where Dunmer are blatantly second class and Khajit/Argonianst arent even aloud inside the walls. Unlike the Thalmor, who are the absolute expression of TES racism. Unlike the Dunmer, who now just seem more grumpy than overly racist, but were very much so in Morrowind.

Then again, they weren't really 'Racist' in Morrowind either... They just didn't like outsiders, regardless of race. You could be a Dunmer, born and raised in Daggerfell, and they'd still hate you.

Do you really think Septim would have allowed the Pocket Guide to be published if it didn't follow his propaganda methods? It certainly did represent the Empire at the time. Redguard is the only TES game that openly presents the Empire as villains.

The Empire isn't racist because racism isn't good for business. There wouldn't be an Empire if everyone hated them. The Stormcloaks don't seem that racist themselves. Windhelm certinally is, but the average Stormcloak supporter isn't. There are plenty of non-Nords in Stormcloak cities, with Riften having an elven court mage and steward. Not to mention a large Argonian and Dunmer population who don't get much trouble. Then again, Riften would rob anyone regardless of race. The Stormcloak Jarl of Markarth gets an Imperial steward. Windhelm also possess a sizable Imperial and Altmer population who don't live in slums.

No one lets the Khajiit caravans into the cities. Not even Solitude. This isn't a Stormcloak thing. They lament how Nords think the caravans sell skooma whilst they openly sell skooma.

The whole "Stormcloaks are racist" seems to be Imperial propaganda which is only partially based in truth. Ulfric is racist, but not all Stormcloaks particularly like Ulfric. Like Dengeir of Stuhn or Ralof.

And the Gray-Manes are a nice group of people. Sure Eorland is a bit gruff, but he's the best smith in Skyrim; he has a reason for his attitude.

And I have to say, being told "Are you a relative of one of the Riften dock workers, Argonian?" wasn't exactly a flattering remark by Hadvar at the beginning of the game with my argonian. Hrmph, just because I'm Saxhleel, doesn't mean I'm related to a bunch of other Marsh-brothers and sisters. Then again, all of Hadvar's remarks all seem to be...insulting to anyone not a nord. Yep, there's the empire for ya. Ralof was a lot more chill with whatever race I was.

That doesn't sound that negative to me. There's a relatively high presence of Argonians in Riften, it's probably one of the warmer climates in Skyrim, and there's a lot of water. Environment-wise, it's probably one of the nicest places in Skyrim for an Argonian to be (it's just unfortunate that the Thieves Guild and Black-Briars are stationed there). Considering you were caught near the southern border, is it really that bad to think you had a relative working the Riften docks?

From what I've heard of Hadvar's comments, he's a bit.. blunt, rather than condescending. If he wanted to be insulting, he would've implied that my Khajiit was a thief (as the racial stereotype goes), and not someone that was with the travelling caravans (which is the unfortunate truth of where most Khajiit are). The same seems to be with the Argonians, assuming you to be related to a Riften dock worker as that's simply where a good number of Argonians are from.

Also considering the fact that Blackmarsh is now independant, and by all accounts with the exception of their invasion of southren Morrowind the Argonians are very insualr, it would stand to reason that an Argonian, caught in southren Skyrim, would more likely come from the largets Argonian community in the region than elsewhere.

Wait, what?! Did you not hear Ralof sing the praises of Ulfric at the start of the game? Here's some of what he says:

"Watch your tongue! You're speaking to Ulfric Stormcloak, the true High King!"

"It has been an honour, Jarl Ulfric."

"Go to Windhelm. If anyone knows why the dragons are back and how to deal with this menace, it will be Jarl Ulfric."

Ralof might as well be the President of the Ulfric Fan Club.


Yeah, I didn't like that. Reminded me too much of how some people will ask us Canadians "Oh, do you know Tom in Toronto?" even if we live on the other side of the frikkin' country. Generalizations do not a good first impression make. Ralof however had the depressing line about "We're all brothers in binds now". Also, he was the first one to try and get me to safety after Alduin attacked. So yeah, that's two points for the Stormcloaks and zilch for the Empire. I still don't like the Stormcloaks in general though; I only really like that one Stormcloak who helped me escape certain death.

Ralof eventually makes comments about hearing things about Ulfric he doesn't like in the inn in Riverwood. I should have mentioned that he starts questioning him later. Then again, it's only one sentence, so it doesn't count for much. So I guess Ralof doesn't count. Dengeir certainly doesn't like Ulfric, though.

I wish Ralof and Hadvar were explored more as characters.

Huh, I'll have to check that out. Is that dialogue only activated once you join the Stormcloaks or Empire, or does it just happen at a certain level/quest progression? As for Hadvar, he wasn't that bad either; he seemed to be more along the lines of "I feel for ya bro, but I gotta follow orders unfortunately".

Ralof hangs out in Riverwood, but this was only when I was stormcloak. Haven't played through empire yet.

How the hell is it anything but racism? The Hlaalu, he comments constantly on how the best way to earn the Nords respect is through hard work. He farms in a frozen wasteland just so he can survive, and he still isn't strong enough for the Nords? Really? I guess he has to grow a few feet and stop wearing a shirt then, huh? In fact, what Dunmer in Windhelm don't work hard for a living? Sure, taking care of the Corner Club isn't exactly back breaking work, but according to many Nords, the drinks are much better there than at the Candlehearth Inn. Why isn't it more popular? Becasue the Nords are too proud to drink with the lowly Dunmer. That Altmer woman comments that the Dunmer don't understand how things really are, what the hell is she talking about? They all work for an honest living like the rest of the people of Windhelm (save for those two beggars, who, next to Ulfric, are the biggest biggots around). Its racism. Of course, the Dunmer are incredibly racist themselves, or, more so they were. I've yet to see a single Dunmer in Skyrim comment on being of superiour stock, other than that guy who wrote that book, who, by the way, isn't even living in Windhelm anymore. Scratch that, the Dunmer were never racist. They just hated everybody, including eachother. That's why we all like them, their misanthropes. There is a very strong Dunmer in The Companions, he is an expert with a blade. Is he still to weak for Skyrim?

The vast majority of Stormcloaks are arrogant asswipes, there is no line of reasoning to work around that. And, if what you say is correct, and the Dunmer are just whining, I guess the only way to prove their worth is to slaughter every Nord they come into contact with then? Good, I'll get right on that, then. Because if the Dunmer were really tough, they would take action and exterminate the Nords! That's the Skyrim way! KILL THE PIG! BASH ITS SKULL! KILL THE PIG! CUT ITS THROAT! KILL THE PIG! BASH ITS SKULL! KILL THE PIG! CUT ITS THROAT!

Except the Dunmer are strong. They're actually the hardiest of all the true Merish races. When you take out Skyrim's tundra and snow, and replace it with volcanic deserts and ash, you get Morrowind. It's just as rugged and wild and they thrived in that. And now, with their homeland destroyed, they've become all the more grim and determined.

Like the Nords, Dunmer value strength and family. Ambition is married with devotion to one's clan and ancestors. They treat life like a never ending battle to be won making every Dark Elf headstrong and brave when it comes to tragedy. When you take out the Daedra worship and dark magic, the Dark Elves and Nords a more similar in ways they'd like to admit.

So no, it's racist. Very racist. They only reason why the Nords aren't treating the Dunmer fairly is because they're Dunmer. Despite the fact that they're just as hardy as the Nords in every aspect.

So your implying that being an outright misanthrope is more honorable or admirable than respecting strength. Especially Orcs prove my point, that Skyrim is an open home to those who are strong, not just the Nords. You don't hear of anyone complaining of their (admittedly limited) presences in the Holds, nor do you here of open resentment of the Orcish strongholds that dot the landscape (except for the occasional bandit tribe).

And the Dunmer in Windhelm make such a loud ruckus about being segregated to the Gray Quarter, when as I've said, the Ratway in Riften would be a much worse place to live. Perhaps, as the Altmer in Windhelm says, if they started "playing by the rules" a little more, maybe they'd get further ahead, instead of simply demanding a right to be "important" citizens.

Addendum: When I say playing by the rules, I do mean bribery and underhanded business methods, as the Altmer seems to imply got her ahead. I won't deny, contrary to my lofty view of the Stormcloaks, that Ulfric is an extremely poor king, and Windhelm itself looks like a poor place to live, Gray Quarter or no.

To the Ninja above: Again, Orcs... Orcs...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHH! You talk about it like the Nords wouldn't be the biggest complainers on the planet if they were forced to live in a ghetto; but wait, the Nords wouldn't let that happen, would they? No, because they are strong. They would just slay their opressors. Its the Nord way. So in order to earn the Nords respect, I have to kill every one of them I see. Its the Skyrim way. KILL THE PIG! CUT ITS THROAT! KILL THE PIG! BASH ITS SKULL!

EDIT: Soooo...the Nords way of respecting strong people is by segregating them and treating them like dirt? Because that's what you seem to be implying. The Dunmer are strong, but the Nords view them as inferior in every way. What else are they supposed to do besides complain? Just sit there and take it in the ass? Or, as is the Skyrim way, prove their strength and slaughter the Nords? You have inspired me to completely depopulate Skyrim of it's Nords.

Sure. Plenty of Nords you have to punch the [censored] out of to get their respect.

Doesn't seem like a very productive cultural move, but whatever, if I have to destroy them to earn their respect, so be it.

I don't think racism is a good enough excuse for a nation not being able to rule itself. They aren't committing genocides. The racism is something Nords have to overcome themselves, and Imperials telling them to love Dunmer would just make it worse.

I just wanna' back Balgruuf for High-King.

Too bad he's sitting shamed in the basemant of the Blue Palace. But yeah, he was the most "level" headed of the bunch. Ulfric is quite the hot head, and Elisif the Fair...well she's seem quite too young and inexperienced to be the High Queen.

Either way, I'm a Stormcloak Saxhleel, and I'm proud of it.

I was heartbroken, I did the MQ with Balgruuf, then he Godfather 2'd me during the Stormcloak quest, so I had to Fredo his ass.