Why would the Stormcloaks care about Elsweyr?

All they will do after getting rid of the Thalmor, elves, and beast races is to just defend their own realm until the Empire completely rots. Then the Thalmor will strike back and win.

The fact that even the altmer can run a decent business in Windhelm shows that the nords under Ulfric won't go out of their way to kill and drive out everyone non-nord. Yeah, there are some racist sentiments by a bunch of them, but the other Jarls seem fine enough with non-nords. The big thing, atm, is to rid the Thalmor. That'll unite everyone, and if Cyrodiil shows some backbone, then the precious empire can be remade.

But seeing as how both Hammerfell AND Skyrim are not happy with how bad the empire has been running things, the empire is going to do nothing but bring everyone down at this point. Plus, if the empire rots, then it's no fault of Skyrim. The empire is rotting, and they're not doing much about it. They need this wake-up call, even if it's painful in the short run. In the long run, it'll pull the Cyrodiil's heads out of their ass, if they can see the light and smell the coffee.

Yes but this situation is simply not tenable, how can you be prepared for war when half your army is alienated by the fact that the empire they are fighting to preserve has outlawed the worship of one of your most prominent gods.




That was for further down the line, for when Skyrim and Hammerfell re-forge a proper empire.

The empire isn't rotting, it's reeling from a long series of Thalmor-induced events. And the only way for the Thalmor to ever be stopped is if the fight is someday taken to them. And the best hope for that is for Skyrim to remain part of the Empire and the Stormcloaks kicked from power. The rest of Tamriel could burn for all the Stormcloaks care.


Simple. When hostilities are reopened, the Concordat will be invalidated. If the Imperials are the ones reopening hostilities, the Nords could see it as redemption. If the Thalmor invade, the Nords will hopefully realize that it was the Thalmor's fault.

I don't know where everybody is getting this opinion from, sure the stormcloaks are a bit xenophobic at the moment, but the Nords as a people, have always had a vested interest in a Tamriel-wide empire. Now-a-days Cyrodiil is simply not fit to lead that empire.




When a Talmor agent has kidnapped a relative, your anger towards the empire wont be soothed because they re-opened aggressions down the line

If the Empire falls, Dominion will destroy Skyrim anyway. Dominion's ultimate goal is eliminating all of the humanity.

The dominion couldn't destroy Hammerfell 1 on 1, how could they destroy both of them ?

I don't get where people get this idea that the Stormcloaks would ever stick their necks out for anything other than a fellow Nord in Skyrim. They don't even care about Dunmer and Argonians in Skyrim. And as I recall, Ulfric seemed pretty upset at the idea of Nords dying on foreign soil, I seriously doubt he'd ever send Nords to fight anywhere other than Skyrim for any cause.

Yes it will, because it means the Empire is no longer their puppet, and to fight alongside them means fighting against the real subject of your hate. Even if you're still sore about it, the Empire is the lesser of two evils, and is certainly not worth abandoning to the Thalmor just for some personal satisfaction.

Because sooner or later, unless the fight is taken to them, they'll make gains, even if it takes another 200 years.

Well, you are right, Hammerfell proves to be a worthy opponent for the pointy ears. Let me reconsider my statement: Hammerfell's example shows that the provinces does stand a chance against the Thalmor when defending their own territory. But Hammerfell's example also proves, that one nation can't defeat the Dominion. If the Empire would aid Hammerfell with the pacified Skyrim on it's side the final victory would be possible.

The Stormcloaks are not racist. The denizens of Windhelm are, to Argonians and Dunmer, but leave everyone else alone. Including Imperials and Altmer.

The Stormcloaks also plan to take the fight to the Dominion. How are they going to do that without leaving Skyrim?

The only way the provinces would fight together is if the Dominion attacked two provinces again. Hammerfell is just as unlikely to help the Empire, and Cyrodiil helping Hammerfell (if just HF is attacked) would break the treaty. If just Cyrodiil is attacked, Markarth's Nord population WILL die if it's under the Empire, since the Forsworn are breathing down it's neck. And the Empire wouldn't care, because Cyrodiil is more important than those filthy Nords. That's how they lost the Reach, because Imperial City > Everyone else.

This is not the Allies of WWI and II. This is an Empire. It cares about Cyrodiil. The Legion is respectable. Even Redoran thought so. Those nobles in the IC? Not so much. Do not use the Legion to judge the entire Empire.


Will it? People seriously overestimate the Dominion. It had difficulty defeating an unsuspecting Empire. Can it really plow through Skyrim, Hammerfell, Cyrodill, High Rock, and Morrowind?

We're obviously not going to come to any understanding, just hope our discussion was useful to the OP.

I still haven't decided which side to join.

Not that I hadn't already made up my mind who I was going to join, but I did't join either until I was 200+ hours into the game.

I have a feeling we've though more about Stormcloak V Imperial V Thalmor in this thread alone, than Beth has.

I have to take issue with that last statement.

Valenwood was attacked by the thalmor and the empire retreated leaving it to its fate.
Black Marsh seceded and the empire left it alone.
Morrowind was attacked and the empire left that issue alone too.
Orsinium was sacked by the redguards/bretons and the empire sent an envoy to escort refugees out and that was it.
Hammerfall was attacked and cyrodiil recalled its legion in essence willingly giving up hammerfall.
Markarth was invaded by reachmen and the empire did nothing.

The empire does NOT provide guaranteed security. This is not the Septim empire. This is the Mede Dynasty, and the Medes don't give a rat's ass about anything but Cyrodiil.

They care more about the rest of Tamriel outside Cyrodiil more than the Stormcloaks care about the rest of Tamriel outside Skyrim. If they didn't care then the Stormcloaks would have won the war long ago.

Only because the imperials used Nord troops to keep the empire intact then spat in the face of their beliefs. Cyrodiil bit the hand that fed them. Give the stormcloaks a few years in power and they'll begin to look beyond their borders, do you honestly think they'll sit in Skyrim with the Thalmor still out there ?

The empire was formed by Tiber Septim who was completely power hungry himself.

Honestly, I can't see them ever leaving Skyrim. Sure they'll probably burn the Thalmor embassay and kill all the Thalmor agents in Skyrim, but I don't see them fighting the Thalmor outside their borders. Aside from the obvious problem that they'd have to march through Imperial territory to reach the Thalmor, they've alienated themselves from the Imperials even more than the Imperials ever did it to them (being forced to ban Talos is not the same as slaughtering the Imperial Legion), damaging any chance of a united front in the future. They can't hope to defeat the Thalmor on their own on the Thalmor's own turf.

By targeting Thalmor agents, deporting the embassy, and officially restoring the worship of Talos. In-game dialogue never explicitly states that there will be a campaign- indeed, how would an offensive campaign even be logistically feasible for a single backward province? Ulfric may well be content with a few pogroms. I also think you are understating the racism of Ulfric and some of his supporters in Riften and Windhelm. The one Altmer who lives in Windhelm is a smooth operator and seems to imply that she has used bribes or some other kind of leverage to secure her position, which is hardly a glowing endorsemant of Ulfric's tolerance.


I think you picked bad example (or a very good one)- X very much equals Y. The empire is self-serving, but not disinterested. The Cyrodiils do not want Thalmor and Forsworn running riot over Skyrim any more than they wany Ulfric in charge.


Not all at once. One at a time, sure. That's how the Empire was built in the first place.

Nurelion?
Ulundil?
Arivanya?
Revyn Sadri?

It wouldn't, really, which is why Skyrim would probably need support from Hammerfell. Cyrodiil is implied to be an absolute wreck by the time of Skyrim. I don't have any sources on that, though. And does Riften really have that many racists? Isn't the Jarl's Stewart an Altmer? I've never really spent much time there. And Windhelm has several other Altmer, including the family the runs the stables and a famous alchemist. There are also several Imperials there.




Of course they don't. I doubt Skyrim wants Thalmor on their southern borders, either. If it comes to protecting Cyrodiil over Skyrim, Cyrodiil would do it. Skyrim would to. Skyrim is just lucky, because either way the Thalmor needs to fight Cyrodiil or Hammerfell first.

Do you see no way that Hammerfell and an independent Skyrim would ally against the Thalmor ?

Edit: Sorry, of course you don't, you don't see them leaving the province. Never has Skyrim been content with what they have, imo, a Stormcloak Skyrim would be aggressively expansionist against anyone who tolerates Thalmor Rule/Influence.

With resources of Cyrodiil and High Rock, Dominion will crush Hammerfell and Skyrim. Separation is not an option - the Empire stood for that long because it was united. It needs a new Emperor, as strong as Tiber Septim. New Numidium wouldn't hurt either.

Talos isn't just a god to the Nords. He is the god of the Empire, worshipped throughout the Empire. One is the material expression, the other the spiritual expression, of the same fundamental principle. They are inseparable, and they reinforce the existence of Nirn. By accepting the idea that the two can be separated, you fall into the Thalmor trap.

Part of the reason Lie Rock fell was because the Dunmer stopped believing Vivec was a god. They no doubt believed that he existed, but them nothing giving him veneration caused him to lose power over Lie Rock. So it felt.

The same would happen to Talos. If everyone stops worshiping him as a god, he loses power.