How exactly would they get to Hammerfell or any other Thalmor-controlled province without going through the remaining Empire to do so? For that matter, how would a "Retake our homeland" movement evolve into an expansionist movement?

Edit: But you were right that we won't agree on it. Bethesda made it so either one gave hope for the future.

I can't believe I forgot about Nurelion et al. My apologies. I still think my point about the difficulty of living in Windhelm for a mer stands. Pedantic note: I've never suggested that Ulfric has any animus toward other humans.

@SilentCollosus
I wouldn't describe Riften as racist, but there is a family that has lost a daughter to the civil war which is bitterly anti-mer. I think there is a general (but for from universal) resentment against mer in Skyrim which a cynical politician could stir up if he chose to.

Regarding Skyrim and war: well, geopolitically, I think Skyrim is more threatened by the Empire than the Dominion. I'm also not convinced that Ulfric would be interested in assisting any other povince even if it were feasible. As for the practicality of war, it's not just about numbers. Sure, the Nords can muster troops, but how will they transport soldiers and weapons to the front, and where will they fight? Will they be willing to subordinate their troops to non-Nord commanders? Will the Redguards allow a Nord army to move unmolested through Hammerfell? How will the Nords survive in unfamiliar and hostile climes with only limited numbers of educated people to make maps, heal the sick and deal with logistics? How will they counter Altmer wizards with no battlemages and barely anyone who can use the Thu'um?

The Empire possesses important qualitative advantages the Nords lack- it's not just about numbers.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:TamrielMap.jpg

That might help. Skyrim borders Hammerfell.

Both Redguards and Nords abhor the Thalmor. Both have decent naval capabilities.(Redguards have cannons too)

With skyrim out of the empire, I doubt High Rock will remain in it either. The kings/queens there will see this as a perfect time to regain power.

They border Hammerfell ? Besides I wasn't suggesting that they should take Hammerfell, only ally with it. If a Hammerfell and Skyrim working in tandem decided to take Cyrodiil and re-forge and empire, I dont think the Bretons would object. I really cant see the Thalmor defeating anybody, they're strength is over-estimated, they rely on fear and intimidation, two adjectives which mean nothing to Hammerfell or an independent Skyrim.

Edit: Obviously two provinces invading Cyrodiil is good for the Thalmor, but since the empire is prone to giving into threats, they could join with SkyrimFell under threat of invasion or common sense.

If I remember the end of the Stormcloak questline correctly Ulfric and Galmar quite literally tell you that they're going to train soldiers to take the fight to the Thalmor, and that they'd cut through the Imperials to get to them if necessary.
Remember Ulfric's words, to fight so that all the fighting done so far wasn't for nothing? He's not upset about Nords dying on foreign soil, he's upset about them dying for nothing (in his view. An Imperial would disagree most fervently). After all, the Thalmor got what they wanted in the end. Hell, it's bad enough they still existed in the end

Exactly why he wont sit in Skyrim.

Sorry, I sometimes forget what the borders look like.

That could work, assuming the Stormcloaks can take Cyrodiil without excessive bloodshed, which would just benefit the Thalmor more. But it could also work for Skyrim to stay with Cyrodiil and build their strength to go to war with the Thalmor while revering Talos in secret. Legate Rikke is a Talos worshiper and Hadvar's uncle mentions that even with the Concordate most Nords continued to worship Talos in secret. And the Thalmor, for all their supposed reputation, are pretty terrible at stamping out Talos worship when it's not blatantly obvious like was the case in the Markarth Incident. High King Torygg himself was implied to worship Talos. The most they can do is catch a few Stormcloak sympathizers. That Markarth and Whiterun still have shrines to Talos shows just how poorly they're doing in rooting out Talos worship (which in fact makes me think that they know their priorities are not stamping out Talos, but instead damaging Imperial-Nord relations and hunting down surviving Blades).

Hey yeah, don't get me wrong, I liked the Mede's, and that could have worked, but it obviously wasn't his intentions, He nor his people beneath him talked to the Jarls about the treaty, never mind talking to them and saying 'look we're accepting this treaty, but only until we regroup, keep the Talos worship on the DL'. Fact is that there is a civil war, and I don't think the nords will be brought back into the fold if they loose. I think there would be an even bigger resentment. So now that there is an actual civil war, the Stormcloaks are the best bet.

It isn't a question of sticking their heads out for any one else, its about them beating down the big bad elves, a sentiment and objective they make very clear they have. The Nords have never been the type to stay at home and hope to be left alone.

As for the Empire, if i were a nord, an empire that would let a foreign entity abduct me or my loved ones to do who knows what to for nothing other than worshiping a God that entity happens to not like, is not an empire that would deserve my loyalty or respect. Strategically what would a Nord think? How can the empire expect to be ready to fight and win the next war when it lets its enemy's agents run free on its territory to spy on it and undermine it. what should they think of an empire that surrendered to an enemy it had beaten and had on the run?

Nords are better off on their own, or at least are better off working out an alliance under terms they can accept rather than simply following in step with the Imperials.

I think either way works. So long as the Empire doesn't give active aid to the Thalmor in hunting down Talos worshipers and turns a blind eye to anti-Thalmor crimes and actions (like how they never helped the Dunmer track down abolitionists), an Empire controlled Skyrim can be made to work. Likewise, if Ulfric actually is able to rally the rest of Tamriel against the Thalmor and doesn't just send the Stormcloaks through Cyrodiil, a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim could work.

I think this might be correct. I guess well all see when more lore is presented, either in a DLC or a future game.

The only thing I believe is certain is that the Thalmor will be defeated in the end. If they are not defeated military and manage to take control they will loose by ttrition since they will not have the numbers to deal with the uprisings that are sure to come.

Maybe the Maormer should show up after 500 years of rebuilding and sack Summerset. Sure it'd be anticlimactic, but I'd find it hilarious.

Or if the numidium suddenly showed up in time again(It does fight until the 5th era anyways)

Or the sload with another plague, the Altmer mysteriously lost their disease resistence,

Maybe they'll give us DLC that adds High Rock and Hammerfell, with an extended quest lines to have an alliances set up with the Bretons and Redguard against the Aldmeri Dominion.

High Rock and Hammerfell ? I don't think so. High Rock would be the most plausible of the two considering its smaller, and even then I don't think its at all likely that we'll get a whole province for one DLC. I'd rather see Hammerfell and High Rock done justice with two full games.

In regards to the OP, my opinion is simple. You need only make two decisions : 1st : Do you think the current empire will eventually (after rebuilding strength of course) re-start the war with the Thalmor? If your answer is NO, you must side with Storm Cloaks. If your answer is YES, you have a second decision : Which force is most likely to defeat the Aldmeri Domion ? Empire without Nord assistance or Empire with Nord Assistance? If you choose the former, then it just comes down to whether you personally like Stormcloaks or Legion best. If you choose the latter however, you MUST choose Empire. To do otherwise is unwise for any sane Thalmor hater, no matter how you slice it. Occams Razor, as ever, is sharp.

I wouldn't worry about it, the next or last expansion will be finding a new emperor.

This is what i agree with. The Empire may be battered, but its hardly out, and there is a huge wealth of information presented in game that suggests they plan on picking up where they left off, once they are sure they can win.

Of course, it all boils down to whether or not you beleive the statements made by Tullius, Rikke, random Legionaires and even the Thalmor.

Similarly, you ahve to put a degree of faith in Ulfric's statements that he wants to drive the Thalmor out. Without knowing HOW either side will play out, its all a matter of faith.

The Empire also already has a history of dissinformation with the Thalmor, to the point where they have been able to catch the Domminion completely offguard and wipe out the bulk of their armies. As such, i don't view the Thalmor agents within Imperial lands as a threat to the Empire's security beyond the fact they rile up the peasents.

Contrary to the arguement that Hammerfell beat the Thalmor, it was Empire Legionaries (Dismissed as a way to circumvent orders) which held the line, and they faced a crippelingly depleated Aldmeri Domminion during that post Great War conflict.

Now, in my mind it boils down to who stands the best chance of stopping the Thalmor. That's the Empire, under the asumption that the Empire DOES take the fight to them again. I know there is a push with this game to love the province of Skyrim, but as far as i'm concerned, the Dragons can have it if it means Tamriel is a safer, Thalmor free place. Damn Skyrim and damn the Nords, Tamriel comes first, and the Empire has the best chance of keeping it safe.

What we really need now is a Breton warlord who can trick a powerful Draugr into fighting for him... Oh, i'm sorry... Right... Talos came from Atmora...

I dont think skyrim has the man power to even take the fight to the thalmor or even a navy to get to the isles it took the empire many legions from 4 provinces to beat the thalmor so how could one province do that on its own? And dont the thalmor still have some loyal bosmer on their side not to mention the khajiit basicaly bow to the thalmor.

It took me about 150+ hrs ingame and a few sleepless nights to decide on this. My conclusion was the Stormcloaks were overall better for the health and prosperity of Skyrim.
Presently, the Imperial Mede Dynasty has allowed the Thalmor to openly congregate, and even open an embassy, in Skyrim. The Thalmor's greatest strengths lie in their incredible propensity for subterfuge, and allowing them easy access to the ruling Imperial class of Skyrim is begging for their nasty hands to puppeteer the High King. You can practically smell their influence on Titus Mede.

Edit: And the last of the Blades said herself the Thalmor were the greatest threat to the Empire, possibly to all of Tamriel

The simple fact is, the Empire is crumbling without a strong leader, and with the Thalmor behind the throne, I see no way for that to happen without some kind of outside revolt.

I don't doubt that the Civil War in Skyrim is entirely a machination of the Thalmor, but I also don't think they totally understand the bee-hive they've struck.

So lets look at our current alliances and possible future alliances:

The Aldmeri Dominion currently holds both the provinces of Vvalenwood and Summerset Isles, two of the least defensible places in Tamriel (particularly due to the Nords sizable armada), and so holds the backing of both the Bosmer and the Altmer. But remember, most of the Wood Elves still disagree with the Aldmeri Dominion and likely would not go to war if pressed and aside from the Thalmor, many of the Altmer themselves have serious issues with the way things are being done. They also pretty much have the Khajiit enraptured to the point of slavery. I see Elsweyr being the biggest threat to the Stormcloak armies...

Now if Skyrim were to secede from the Empire, I see them having almost immediately support from the Redguards. With Hammerfell's warships (equipped with cannons no less) and Skyrim's long-ships, the Summerset Isles would have no way to beat an all-out offensive. However, I never saw a reason or motive from Ulfric to attack the Altmer as a whole, just a driving need to free his people (Man as a whole, not just the Nords) from the Thalmor's influence.
I also see High Rock following suit soon after, as they have never really agreed with the practices of the Empire to begin with and it would give them the opportunity to rule themselves, which is exactly what Ulfric would have shown the people of Tamriel is possible.
Another strong possible ally that has not been mentioned yet is Argonia. They practically threw the Thalmor out on their collective asses and said, "don't come 'round here no more". With Elsweyr an ally to the Aldmeri Dominion, I think the Argonian's would see it as an opportunity to take back more of their lands from the Khajiit.

Lastly are the Dunmer and the Imperials.
Honestly, after the Great War, I see the Imperials essentially bowing out of any future wars until they have time to rebuild Cyrodiil. As always, the Imperials as a people have always been more concerned with their Capital City and its trading health. They have always been shrewd diplomats and I think they would be most likely to wait it out, re-open trade with the victor, and worry about rebuilding the Empire as a whole at a later date. That is, of course, if the Thalmor doesn't force Cyrodiil's hand in some way.
Now the Dunmer are the most difficult to ponder upon. They have an ancestral hatred towards the Altmer, but they also have no love for the races of man. They are also the least powerful of the nations after the eruption of the Red Mountain, but you get the underlying feeling that they have started to rebuild. Unforgivably, I see them most likely to join the Aldmeri Dominion, as the Thalmor are likely to use Morrowind's holdings as a leverage point.

PS; As far as Ulfric's supposed 'racism', I do not see it. Yes, he has issues with the Thalmor. Yes he has relegated the Dunmer to the Gray Quarter, but more likely due to the Dunmer's propensity for violent uprisings rather than an out and out hatred for the Dark Elves. Plus, the Gray Quarter is indefinably better than Riften's Ratway or Markarth's underground slums. I also tend to agree with the Altmer merchant, that if the Dunmer spread out more and shut their loud mouths a little, life would greatly improve for them. As a Khajiit, the Stormcloaks seemed to keep me under a watchful eye, until I proved I was as strong as any Nord. After that, the really didn't ask to many questions.

I don't agree with this at all. The Thalmor, with the exception of the Moon incedent, don't seem to be particularly effective ad subterfuge. In fact, they seem to have fallen for the Empires own missdirection, which ended desasterously for them.

After abandoning the Imperial City, Titus Mede II encouraged the Thalmor beleif that he was preparing to surrender. Rather than being ready for a counter attack, this convinced the Thalmor that they had won, only to have Mede butcher the vast majority of their army and hang one of the greatest generals from the walls of the Imperial City.

The Thalmor also didn't take power in Summerset through subterfuge, but due to their military might and the fact that the majority of the Altmer leadership was killed in the fall of the Crystal Tower.

Despite all their note taking and internal plans, theres nothing to really indicate that the Thalmor are particularly crafty. The Khajit, on the other hand... But then again theres a reason the cats aren't allowed into any major cities.

I don't know, the lore on the Great Wars seems to indicate that the Imperial's deception was Cyrodiil's attempt at playing the Thalmor's game right back at them, but that is purely conjecture on my part.

And allow to correct my previous statement, it is the Thalmor's constant and fantastic military intel that brought them to the forefront of the war (can't really say the even won), until the beautiful cases of misinformation were spread.

I tend to find that the division between the Empire and the Stormcloaks is a good one. I think the duality of Tullius and Ulfric is more cut and dry, but the Stormcloaks and Empire have no clear superior possition. It boils down to taking the moral highground now and maybe dieing tommorow, to taking the lower ground today and maybe getting back on top tommorow. The general uncertianty of the political world leaves both sides with favorable traits and arguements, regardless of how we pick it appart.

Of course, theres also the death of Emperor Mede II to consider. I'm half expecting it to play out in a Julius Ceasar style, with the Empire trouncing that damn Elder Council and comming out stronger, and more determined, than ever.

Had that been the case, or had there been any indication that this may happen, I may have joined the Empire. I find the Elder Council to be one of the most ineffectual, if not damaging, political aspects of the Empire.