Who is the better choice for Skyrim in the long run? The Sto

Post » Mon May 07, 2012 10:28 am

If it wasn't for Ulfric, I may have sided with the Stormcloaks. But as it is, the higher-ups are about as xenophobic as the Dunmer, just in a more passive-aggressive way. They may not outright hate you, but they won't help you when you need (the Dunmer in Windhelm) and try to "protect" people from you (Argonians not being allowed in Windhelm, Khajiit not being allowed in Riften). He has people slaughtered that are living in relative peace and prosperity (taking the Reach from the Forsworn). That the Thalmor can also indirectly manipulate him doesn't make him any more endearing. Plus, he has a typical "bad guy voice", deep and methodical speech giving a sinister undertone, which makes me instinctively distrust him.

The Empire, on the otherhand, doesn't like the Thalmor any more than the Stormcloaks do, and regularly break the Concordat. When Ulfric had control of Markath, he refused to let Imperial soldiers in unless they agreed to not ban Talos worship in the city (which they did agree to). They allow the High King to be buried with reverence to Talos. General Tullius allows Legate Rikke to serve her duty while knowing she secretly worships Talos. The know a second Great War is going to occur. The only question is what's going to happen now with Titus II being assassinated.
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Gemma Woods Illustration
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 7:07 pm

Funny, I thought I was the only one that thought he sounded evil :P
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Beulah Bell
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:03 pm

This is what i agree with. The Empire may be battered, but its hardly out, and there is a huge wealth of information presented in game that suggests they plan on picking up where they left off, once they are sure they can win.
There is something that's been bugging me about the condition of the Empire in Skyrim though. A lot of people talk as if the Great War was a recent event, but it's been thirty years.
Thirty years is a long time, surely enough to build an army.
And what does the Empire have to show for it? All their forts in Skyrim remain abandoned, there's hardly a legion presence to speak of and they're forced to recruit locally in order to quell a rather dangerous insurrection. What's keeping the Empire? Where are the armies they've been training? Is this just a product of Skyrim's presentation/gameplay/scaling?
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(G-yen)
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:04 pm

There is something that's been bugging me about the condition of the Empire in Skyrim though. A lot of people talk as if the Great War was a recent event, but it's been thirty years.
Thirty years is a long time, surely enough to build an army.
And what does the Empire have to show for it? All their forts in Skyrim remain abandoned, there's hardly a legion presence to speak of and they're forced to recruit locally in order to quell insurrection. What's keeping the Empire? Where are the armies they've been training? Is this just part of Skyrim's presentation/gameplay/scaling?

I'd say its either;
A: Poor writing. I mean, there were 20 years between WWI and WWII, and look a the buildup that was doable there.

B; Its a lead in to the Domminion war. IF i were to write it i would say that the lack of a Legion presence in Skyrim is due to the fact that the Legion is already preparing to invade the Domminion, and commiting too much resources to Skyrim, the focus of the Thalmor's inquisition, would show too much of the Empires hand.
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Big Homie
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 12:46 am

There is something that's been bugging me about the condition of the Empire in Skyrim though. A lot of people talk as if the Great War was a recent event, but it's been thirty years.
It's actually been a smidge over 25 years since the signing of the Concordat.
The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more then half its soldiers fit for duty. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eight during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Titus II knew that there would be no better time to negotiate peace and late in 4E 175 the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion signed the White-Gold Concordat, ending the Great War.
For all we know, it could've been Titus II's plan all along to get people to hate him enough so that there'd be a forceful takeover of his reign and use it as a launch pad against the Dominion. Having Titus II himself restart hostilities wouldn't be as effective if people still hated him for giving in in the first place. This is backed up by how calm he is when he sees you there to kill him, how he didn't want increased security and body doubles, and how he knew it was his destiny to be killed.
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His Bella
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 1:39 am

RinJiit, Black Marsh is extremely isolationist, and only had a beef with the dunmer. They're not going to be land grabbing anytime soon, unless the Hist commanded them.
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NAtIVe GOddess
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 3:46 pm

And what does the Empire have to show for it? All their forts in Skyrim remain abandoned, there's hardly a legion presence to speak of and they're forced to recruit locally in order to quell a rather dangerous insurrection. What's keeping the Empire? Where are the armies they've been training? Is this just a product of Skyrim's presentation/gameplay/scaling?
My sense of the metaplot is that the Empire was at its strongest during the reign of Tiber Septim. It has had its ups and downs, but generally gradually declined through the Third Era. Uriel Septim VII was the most effective emperor in generations, but was also faced with some of the greatest challenges -- reconstructing the Numidium solved many problems, and it's noticeable that the one province we haven't heard any bad news about has been High Rock -- but the Empire was clearly nearing the point of collapse after centuries of weakening. Martin Septim managed, against all odds, to end the Oblivion crisis and allow the Empire a little more time. The Medes have just been watching over the largest of the broken pieces; they lack the mythic resonances that the Septims held.

The civil war in Skyrim is near the endgame. Without Skyrim, traditionally the most loyal province after Cyrodiil, the Empire will be too weak to survive. Without Talos, the Empire will be too weak to survive. You can't really choose one over the other. Either path, taken without consideration of the significance of the Dragonborn, would mean the collapse of the Empire, the success of the Thalmor, the liquidation of the structures that reinforce the Mundus, the extinction of humans, and the dissolution of Mundus.

However, it is not a coincidence that the Dragonborn appears just at this moment.
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Siidney
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:45 pm

The Courier is the best choice, obviously. Sadly, I can't seize power for myself due to essential NPCs. So...Empire. Would go with the Stormcloaks, but sense I primarily play Dunmer, that's a bit difficult to do.
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Killah Bee
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:07 pm

My sense of the metaplot is that the Empire was at its strongest during the reign of Tiber Septim. It has had its ups and downs, but generally gradually declined through the Third Era. Uriel Septim VII was the most effective emperor in generations, but was also faced with some of the greatest challenges -- reconstructing the Numidium solved many problems, and it's noticeable that the one province we haven't heard any bad news about has been High Rock -- but the Empire was clearly nearing the point of collapse after centuries of weakening. Martin Septim managed, against all odds, to end the Oblivion crisis and allow the Empire a little more time. The Medes have just been watching over the largest of the broken pieces; they lack the mythic resonances that the Septims held.

Honestly, Cyrodiil seems redundant now that the Covenant is gone. And with the Imperial heartland turning out to be a generic and vapid high fantasy setting instead of an interesting realm like Skyrim, Morrowind, or the Shivering Isles.....
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Phillip Brunyee
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 1:41 pm

Funny, I thought I was the only one that thought he sounded evil :tongue:
Nah, maybe it was just bad writing, but every time he started giving one of those speeches of his he seemed more and more like a sinister, egotistical, deeply disturbed megalomaniac.
Had that been the case, or had there been any indication that this may happen, I may have joined the Empire. I find the Elder Council to be one of the most ineffectual, if not damaging, political aspects of the Empire.
There's some small indication of it, actually. Dark Brotherhood spoilers:
Spoiler
The plot to assassinate him is funded by a member of the Elder Council.
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Jessie Butterfield
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:15 pm

Possible but unlikely. I saw this as a very 'Brutus' act, but not one of Cesarean dissolution of the Senate, rather a usurper to the Imperial Throne.
But honestly, I have no F'in clue.
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Sammygirl
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 8:18 pm

I think it's a shame we don't see what happens to the Redguards you can see heading to Windhelm wishing to join the Stormcloaks. Unless you can, because I never bothered following one. They say that they think Skyrim is their home as much as any Nords, an answer Galmar seems to like. Did they join but are such a minority you don't see them? Did Galmor say "lolno"? Did they die to the Ice Wraith? An answer would help with answering how racist they actually are.

Edit 3: Deleted previous edits, don't really feel like arguing this stuff right now, and I forget what the Stormcloak-alligned Altmer (and Bosmer) say about the situation.
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Bones47
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:09 pm

They like my argonian. Had to prove my worth the same way as my nord, even though my nord was decked head to toe in daedric armor and weapons, slew many dragons, completed the Companion quest-line, and gathered most shouts.

Though, I was called a lizard by Galmar when he was asking why would I even want to join. However, a lot of people, empire or not, seem to call the Saxhleel "lizards" anyway.
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Greg Swan
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 3:27 pm

I think either way works. So long as the Empire doesn't give active aid to the Thalmor in hunting down Talos worshipers and turns a blind eye to anti-Thalmor crimes and actions (like how they never helped the Dunmer track down abolitionists), an Empire controlled Skyrim can be made to work. Likewise, if Ulfric actually is able to rally the rest of Tamriel against the Thalmor and doesn't just send the Stormcloaks through Cyrodiil, a Stormcloak controlled Skyrim could work.
I would go with this.
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Isabel Ruiz
 
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Post » Tue May 08, 2012 1:34 am

Racism is a big theme with everything non-Imperial. Lets face it, the Dunmer were extremely racist. The Thalmar are even worse, even if the average Altmer has a somewhat muted superiority rather than outright racism. The Stormcloaks (At least through their leadership) are. The Argonians are none to fond the other races. The Sload are veritably genocidal. The Imperials are really the only race which has worked to activly smooth out racial relations, sometimes diplomaticly, sometimes not. Even as Pro-Empire as i am, i cringed when Tullius said "I'll send you to wherever you people go when you die".

Still, racisim alone cannot be the defining characteristic by which you judge either the Empire or the Stomrcloaks. If it is, you are seriously missing the point of the conflict.
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Michelle Chau
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 12:04 pm

Nords have always struck me as a real-world Scandinavian-like people, and like the Vikings of olde, I don't see what Ulfric or Galmor is doing is at all racist in any way. It is purely a matter of physical superiority. Skyrim is an extremely harsh and unforgiving mother, so a certain strength of body and soul is expected by the Nords of anyone who enters the fatherland.
And quite like the Vikings, it doesn't seem to matter who or what you are, but how strong you are. If a man fought for his family, killing tens of Vikings by himself, the marauders would spare the man's family and offer him a place on their ships and a cut of the loot.
The Mer tend to be less physically powerful, and therefore less respected, but not shunned or discouraged from entry. They just get flak for being weak whiners...

But as Lachdonin stated, if your using racsim alone to choose your side (unless, perhaps, your playing a Dunmer) your missing the point of the war.
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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:17 pm

I chose the empire. Because speculate as much as we want we cannot predict the future, So I believe we must act in the most loving and responsible to the people of Skyrim. We don’t know if the empire will crumble or becomes powerful once more if so and so happens. All we can do with confidence is try and end a terrible civil war that only benefits the common enemy and weakens all of mankind. We should try to heal Skyrim. I chose the empire for many reasons but the biggest one was that I sure as HELL do not want to see Ulfric rule over ANYTHING, let alone a province that will play a major role in the future of man. As many have already said Ulfric is a traitor, a selfish bigot, a unintelligent train wreck of a man who is not fit to claim any position of power (imo)……
He would be terrible for Skyrim, terrible for Tamriel. Yes he is good at rallying men, in fact in the beginning tutorial I left Helgen with the stormcloak. His first speech was magical, but then I remember Hitler was also a good speaker and we all know how that turn out. But still I thought he might make a good leader. But once I met the man I saw no great diplomat, no fair and lawful ruler, and no hero worth fighting for. After I learned of how he assassinated the high king any sympathy I had for the rebel die. He never tried to talk directly to the high king about his plan for Skyrim’s future, a king who admired him and would probably have at least thought about the proposal, instead Ulfric challenges him to an honorable duel without magic then Ulfric kills him with powerful ancient Nordic magic! The fact that he had not at least talked to the king before deciding it was best to kill him indicates that Ulfric wanted the throne over anything else, and he doesn’t care how many people suffer in the process of acquiring it. He would make an unfit king. His city is by far the most depressing in all of Skyrim.
Ulfric manipulates the weakness of his nation to gather a great troop and what does he do with that power? Does he try to claim his right by gaining support of the jarls in a through peaceful means? NO. Instead he kills his king in a dishonorable way and plunges his country into a bloody civil war!
However Elisf is not the greatest high queen ever she seems shy and lacking of confidence, but she is also kind and caring to her peoples and their problems (things Ulfric need to be to make a good king). Besides there’s a reason why she is called “the fair”. Elisf is young and can learn to be more accretive, and if not theirs always Jarl Balgruuf who in my opinion is the most worthy to sit upon a throne. He is cautious yet bold, strict yet fair Balgruuf ftw!
In the longer term I would like to see the empire reborn into a new United Nations type government, where each province rules itself and work together for the betterment of all nations under this new banner. This is just an idea and probably will not happen but I can’t see this empire lasting to long without a stable foundation such as a dragon born empire or something equally as flashy.
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Elizabeth Davis
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:59 pm

In the longer term I would like to see the empire reborn into a new United Nations type government, where each province rules itself and work together for the betterment of all nations under this new banner. This is just an idea and probably will not happen but I can’t see this empire lasting to long without a stable foundation such as a dragon born empire or something equally as flashy.

I would just like to point out that the UN has proven its self to be among the single, most inefective bodies in the history of Democracy, which in and of its self has a long history of ineffectivness. It's barely more useful than the League of Nations.
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Vickey Martinez
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 3:11 pm

I would just like to point out that the UN has proven its self to be among the single, most inefective bodies in the history of Democracy, which in and of its self has a long history of ineffectivness. It's barely more useful than the League of Nations.
Well i said like. I know how useless the UN can be, maybe it can work on tamriel. :confused:
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SUck MYdIck
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:03 pm

Well i said like. I know how useless the UN can be, maybe it can work on tamriel. :confused:

I feel this would be the best approach to the Elder Council. Representitives of every race, rather than some old, educated mucky-mucks. That said, you would still need a deciding voice in the form of an Emperor, because on their own we know that none of the races really get along at the best of times.
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Amy Masters
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 4:29 pm

I feel this would be the best approach to the Elder Council. Representitives of every race, rather than some old, educated mucky-mucks. That said, you would still need a deciding voice in the form of an Emperor, because on their own we know that none of the races really get along at the best of times.
yeah, but maybe not an emperor but some form of president. i'm tired of monachs. This way its easy to get rid of an unfit ruler. but could this system work better on nirn than it does on earth is the real question.
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K J S
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:54 pm

yeah, but maybe not an emperor but some form of president. i'm tired of monachs. This way its easy to get rid of an unfit ruler. but could this system work better on nirn than it does on earth is the real question.

Well, they did get rid of Potema. What we need is the Morag Tong to be implemented in the Empire, and subject only to an Imperial contract from a Province-Representitive Elder Council, allowing the council to remove and ineffective Emperor only bt unanimous (Or maybe 80%) assent. Otherwise, the same Morag Tong opperates as bodyguards for the Emperor to prevent other assasination attempts.

Then, when a new Emperor must be chosen because of the end of a Dynasty, re-establish a divine covenant in the form of the Dragon-Fires, and require an incumbant to pass through them. If he is unharmed, he has the support of the Gods. If he burns... Well... Find another :P.... But thats meandering too off topic.

Grrr... shifty stormcloaks.
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Amysaurusrex
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 9:22 am

For all we know, it could've been Titus II's plan all along to get people to hate him enough so that there'd be a forceful takeover of his reign and use it as a launch pad against the Dominion. Having Titus II himself restart hostilities wouldn't be as effective if people still hated him for giving in in the first place. This is backed up by how calm he is when he sees you there to kill him, how he didn't want increased security and body doubles, and how he knew it was his destiny to be killed.

^This FTW!
I hated Titus, before meeting him. Now I believe that his death is a plan of his. We know he's a capable strategist, just look at the Red Ring. If the next emperor is smart, he can bring the scattered fragments of Man together (Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock, maybe even Hammerfell). All he needs to do is demonize Titus Mede II and promise Skyrim and Hammerfell reparations for what the Empire has done (starting with a renewed war effort). Heck, if the new guy really plays his cards right, he might be able to get the Dunmer or Khajit behind him (perhaps both, with the right amount of politicking; help the Dunmer resettle Morrowind, expose the Thalmor as being liars about the whole moons fiasco).
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candice keenan
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Yep titus usefullness ended after the battle of the red ring
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Czar Kahchi
 
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Post » Mon May 07, 2012 6:27 pm

Ulfric is a dirt bag and could not acquire outside help against the thalmor. Skyrim cant win against the aldmeri dominion on it's own after a civil war and the dragons attacks. It's not just Skyrim vs the Thalmor it's skyrim vs the aldmeri dominion, which their bonds would probably be stronger at the sight of a faltering empire.

Divide and conquer works like a charm. If the empire had as much trouble as they did against the thalmor unified, wth will happen when it's divided.
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Steeeph
 
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