So, there have been a lot of topics on the Stormvloak/Empire struggle on the Skyrim General Forum, but who would be the better option in the long run lore-wise?

The Stormcloaks. The Empire is going to crap, and it would likely try to svck all of Skyrim's resources before it collapses. It already proved it cares more about Cyrodiil when it forced the Nords to defend the Imperial City, letting The Reach fall apart.

Splitting Skyrim from the Empire during this Thalmor problem is only going to weaken the men.

I sided with the Stormcloaks, besides lore reasons for wanting to keep Talos around, imo, they will forge a stronger empire to combat the Thalmor. Ulfric may not be in it for totally selfless reasons but I sided with him anyway. Sure splitting the empire may not be good for men, but at least now, if beth decide to go the stormcloak way, they have both Skyrim and Hammerfell not tolerating Thalmor BS.

The men of Tamriel should first deal with the Thalmor threat and the only thing that can hold a strong alliance together is the Empire. If all the provinces will betray the empire, the Aldmeri Dominion will take them one by one.

Stormcloaks, for reasons stated by SilentColossus and Ryan22.

Yeah, it sounds great if everyone is sided together, but the empire is weakening badly, and is being shoved around by enemy combatants. With Hammerfell being independent, they've shown the Thalmor are not going to stick their noses inside, and Ulfric seems very ready to do the same. It also concentrates power to each state, allowing them to defend their homes better, instead of the Imperials spreading everyone out and focus only on Cyrodiil.

Also, I bet you an alliance between Hammerfell and Skyrim would create one of the most kick ass fighting forces this side of Tamriel.

Funny, I don't remember The Dominion taking Hammerfell 1 on 1.

Edit:



**** yeah.

Not to mention, it's going to be a while before the Thalmor can build back power, as man can breed like bunnies compared to mer. The Thalmor are only relying on sabotage, intimidation, and assassination to put on a powerful face. And with the empire letting the Thalmor shove them around, it's only serving to weaken them badly.

Indeed. The general strategy of the Thalmor seems to be noted in http://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-rising-threat-vol-iv. Gather a plethora of info on your target and strike where they're weakest with so much tenacity they're afraid to strike back. This is the big reason I see the empire as being harmful to mankind. They're letting the thalmor roam free and report back on all the legion strengths, locations, movements, weaknesses, fortifications, everything.

Plus, with a Stormcloak victory, the empire will have to swallow some bitter medicine and get its [censored] act together, as it's extremely apparent that their current plan is [censored].

They lost Hammerfell, but didn't seem too upset by it. By losing Skyrim, it'll force them to wake the hell up, and stop bending over and grabbing their ankles whenever the Thalmor show up.

I think the Empire is best. Think about it the Thalmor lived quietly and let the Empire be the number one guys on Tamriel, while they slowly and carefully chipped away at them, the Empire needs to do the same, keep Skyrim and wait, they will grow stronger and at the same time slowly try to weaken the thalmor until they can beat them in a war then they'll make their strike. The key is patience, the thalmor didn't just revolt and then invade Cyrodiil like the stormcloaks want to (except they'll invade Alinor) they just sat back and watch the empire crumble.

And if they did get their act together an a truce, albeit, an uneasy one, could be formed to combat the Thalmor in a greater capacity.

Not really. The Thalmor wanted no side to win, only to have a long and brutal civil war that drained both badly.

An independent Skyrim would mean one less country the Thalmor are allowed to operate in, and it allows Talos to stay in effect. Not to mention, an invasion against Skyrim would be awful. It's a cold, mountainous, and dangerous land, not a flat bowl (Cyrodiil) or a tropical paradise (Summerset). A victory for the empire would mean it still stands with a still capable fighting force.

Also, the empire seems to be doing NOTHING against the Thalmor. Then again, no one can really enter Alinor, unless they are Thalmor, and no human would be allowed to be Thalmor. The only thing anyone can do against the Thalmor, would be to, somehow, get plants in Valenwood and the two states of Elswyr. Even then, nothing against Summerset directly.

I say Empire is best, both for Skyrim and for Tamriel. Regardless of the weakened state of the empire compared to what it once was, it's mentioned that it brings improved trade for Skyrim as well as improved security. It's inevitable that the Thalmor will break the terms of their own Concordat (if they haven't already), and when that happens it's best if the Nords do their part to put the Dominion in its place. And even if some Nords hate the idea of fighting anywhere other than their home province, it's better for Skyrim if the Thalmor are defeated in Cyrodiil than defeated in Skyrim.

They are doing nothing against the Thalmor because they are occupied with dragons and a civil war, which is what the Thalmor was hoping for.

The Thalmor isn't going to be stopped by another war, the Thalmor are too smart for that. I believe it's going to be from a single guy who will go unnoticed. A person born under a certain day by uncertain parents. Doesn't matter who won the civil war, god is on men's side.

The empire brings security in as much as its a buffer that the Thalmor have to cross to invade, thats it. Skyrim is actually Cyrodiils security (See: pretty much any conflict in the empires history) not that other way around.

What makes you think Ulfric wouldn't side with the Thalmor? Seriously, people, it's called divide and conquer. I know the Thalmor dossier states that they would prefer a stalemate, but I seriously doubt the Dominion has any immediate intention of conquering Skyrim, and Ulfric no doubt wants protection against the empire.

Also: Talos is a lame duck at this point, and not much of an excuse for anything. Now, if they can muster a proper Shezzarine (our hero?), that's a different matter, but I expect the future High King would will do just about anything to keep that loose cannon under control. All the more reason for Ysmir returned to cut Ulfric's scheming [censored] head off and shout his bigoted corpse into the void.

Several Stormcoaks say the Thalmor are next, have you played through their questline ?

As much as I admire the Stormcloaks, I can't stand their Jarls and their leader Ulfric. They're either arrogant, ignorant, paranoid, pessimistic, racist, or just annoying. Looking at the bigger picture, I think it's better to go with the Empire in the long run. All this fighting helps no one except the Thalmor.

And how successful do you think they'll be? After exhausting themselves from the Civil War, do you really think they have a chance against the incredibly powerful Thalmor?

The Nords aren't some unstoppable force, even in their home province. The Akaviri swept right through them until being stopped by the Imperials. The fact is, while they're in the Empire if anything happens they can rely on the help of two other provinces.

I know that's what the footsoldiers think- Ulfric is happy to ride high on anti-mer feelings. That doesn't preclude Realpolitik such as a change in tone and strategic realignment once he is in power, ala the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. He could always redirect the resentment toward the Dunmer, and probably will.

The Thalmor aren't some unstoppable force either, honestly I respect the point your making, but the Redguards fighting the Thalmor to a stalemate is all I need to make up my mind that the empire is in the wrong. Bowing down to them now, even in the short term isn't a good thing. Kick the empire out while it makes up its mind on wether it wants to actually fight the Thalmor, ally with Hammerfell and take back Elsweyr.

Ulfric is very loud about the fact that the Thalmor is the real enemy. He says it to you, Galmar does too, and he says it in his speech after killing Tullius. And to you again, afterwards.

"Bowing out" to them isn't conductive to the Thalmor plans either. They can't eliminate Talos in Skyrim, no matter how hard they try. I feel it is best for Cyrodiil and Skyrim to remain united, so when the Thalmor inevitably reopen aggressions, they'll be able to stand united against them and if things go well, retaliate. They certainly need to be united if there's ever to be any hope of ending the Thalmor menace. The best case scenario for a Stormcloak victory would be the Thalmor invading Cyrodiil and getting defeated after years of fighting, but since the Stormcloaks don't care about anything but Skyrim, there will be no hope of anybody actually going on the offensive against the Thalmor.

Edit: The best case Imperial victory scenario would be the Imperials and Nords going on the offensive against the Thalmor.

Personally I think this all could have been resolved if the Markarth Incident was handled better. They should have goaded the Thalmor into invading The Reach, then getting the Imperial Legion to help the proto-Stormcloaks pull a Drop Site Massacre on the elves.