from what i understand, alduin is only the nordic interpretation of akatosh, not akatosh himself. they compare only superficially. two set seperate entities, one the preserver, one the destroyer.

Okay *cracks knuckles* here's the short version:

The Aedra are influenced by the beliefs of mortals. In fact they may not even have identities independent of those beliefs anymore, having given up most of themselves to create Nirn. The Time God, all other influences removed, is just the concept of time, period, with maybe a bit of a draconic appearance thrown in. The Time God gets his identity from the beliefs mortals have about him, but mortals don't all agree. So the elves' beliefs form Auniel, the imperial's and breton's form Akatosh, and the nord's form Alduin. They're all the Time God, but the personas are all completely independent of one another in motivations and attitudes towards Nirn.

As for Tosh Raka, he is also the Time God, but through a process called mantling, in which a mortal essentially mimics a god until they become the god. It's the same thing we do to Sheogorath in Shivering Isles.

*coughcougholdtestamentcough*

Can you link it? How does Anu fit in then? He is after all, the one that conflicted with Lorkhan to create Aetherius and Nirn..



Yes..



Look up the greek god, Atlas! That reminds me of his story! Easter egg???



..



I think they're the same.

Tosh-Raka is not Akatosh, just because it is spelled backwords and you take out an R doesn't mean it is him. Also, Akatosh is the god of time so things must come to an end. So the Nords know he must end things that's why he is the antagonist. One more thing, the Tosh-Raka subject has been discussed before. How can some tiger be a god?

Tosh Raka became a Tiger-dragon from a tiger like person. I doubt that it is a coincidence. He is a tiger-dragon and Alduin is a dragon. How can some dragon be a god?

Because the Nords think Alduin the World-eater looks like a dragon, obviously.

You must have just let everything in this thread go through one ear and out the other.

Gods in TES are actually subject to people's beliefs about them. Without any belief they cease to exist (or at least as they once were). With belief, they exist AS THEY ARE BELIEVED TO BE. To the Nords, Akatosh (known as Alduin to them), is an ender. He is an eater and finisher of this world. They can't stand him. The Imperials love him, they see him as an object of stasis and peace. Tosh-Raka is, and isn't, the dragon god of time.

Think about it like this. Imagine someone followed you every day, did everything you did, looked like you and thought like you. What is the difference between them and you, as far as everyone else can see? This is mantling. Walk like a god, until they must walk like you.

Very true. Time is both a creator, and a destroyer. So... it does make sense, in a way. But a good point about the names... There must be something behind that.

You never noticed this about Tosh Raka? I posted about it a good bit back. And how? Well, thats simple. Akatosh is an "overdeity" -- he exists as one and three and more than three simultaneously. These are called Avatars, all sort of like pseudopods of the greater entity. How such a being functions is unknowable from a mortal perspective: We can abrely even preceive of the Daedra. Those like Akatosh are well beyond our sight, but may be right infront of us all the time.

Standard triune-deity type myth. This one is a lot like the Christian Trinity, although not quite as connected to us, which is why it appears as temporary humans (ghostgate), sudde nmanifests of energy (imperial city) or any number of unusual forms. But to speak to the being itself, or even conceive it, is impossible for a mortal. Fortunately! People have given it thought, and have organized it quite nicely as "Eschatology", the study of religion and theology and such; rather than the study of a singular faith , its the study of "faith" and "religion" as broad terms. If you read up on that sorta stuff, you'll see how these sorta beings liek Akatosh work.

Trouble is, Bethesda, fantasy writers, etc. have to use shorthand for dealing with deities; we have to try and portray a tthousands of years old faith realisticly, and the only way we can do that sans thousands of years of religion is to play off the themes that have appeared numerous times in real world histories and religions. Since theres a good similar core between all the religions of an area, its fairly simple to take bits and peices and expand on them.

But you just said that Tosh- Raka can't be a god and he's a Tiger- Dragon..



Sorry, i'm a little confused. So why do these people/gods/dragons mantle?




Yeah

Sometimes its like an accident, sort of how Martin mantled Akatosh to fight Mehrunes Dagon. Sometimes its willingness (without knowing that you would end up mantling them), like how the Champion of Cyrodiil mantled Sheogorath, apparently permanently, after acting exactly like him for some time (simply by following his commands). Other times, as I believe with Tosh'Raka, it is entirely by will of mind. He WANTED to be a god, so he did everything that god did, and voila, he became it.

In a way, its kind of backwards assumption. If you wore a police uniform, had a badge, stopped crime, and no one was the wiser, then aren't you a police officer? Its a situation where if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, then quacks like a duck, then it MUST be a duck, even if it wasn't before.

You are confused. My keyboard did not spawn any such statement.

It wasn't confirmed by a dev so it was not. Certain things that are in game lore cannot always be taken at face value, due to Bethesda purposely having it written it with varying accounts so the 'authors' can be wrong.

Maybe Akatosh suffers from the same thing as Sheogorath/Jyggalag. Maybe he can't stop himself from becoming Alduin.

Maybe they aren't even the same being! bliviongate:

Great post, but i am a little confused as to whether Akatosh is all three or even two, because of the mantling post. I guess we don't know yet..




I understand what you mean, but do read MouseMage's post as it contradicts your point and offers another insight on it.




Sorry, i assumed you were the earlier poster who i replying too. Go back and read the post i was replying too..I was basically showing them that their logic doesn't make sense..



Yes, my fault; but that is what this thread is about discussing. Whether the three are physically or mentally or spiritually connected in any way.

Hmm, if it is true that Alduin and Akatosh are the same then what happens when/if you defeat Alduin? If the gods are dependent on mortal interpretation and everyone believes the hero saved the day and possibly killed Alduin does this mean Akatosh is dead. Probably that his role as destroyer is dead, and if this has been an ongoing cycle wouldn't that mean the cycle is broken....which would lead the world to unknown territory. Seems like major things are being set up in the world of tes, Jygglagg is freed once more adding an extra deadra to the mix, the nature of Akatosh may be changing and the world of nirn may be entering an era that was never meant to happen.

I still wonder how the balance of power of deadra is being effected by there now existing a deadra prince of order and of madness: before there wasn't one of madness and only the one of order existed. Then madness replaced order but now both for the first time will exist simultaneously.

Best theory I've seen for what defeating Alduin will functionally be is that we're going to remove from the concept of Alduin his role as destroyer.

That's what i'm wondering too!



I asked this earlier too! I guess we'll have to wait 10+ months!

EDIT: I went back and read previous posts that were much, much better than mine. So I'm removing my wasteful one.

Also I hope some of this mystery is brought up in the game.

The TES gods live in my mind more than the gods of current world religions. Looks like I'm goin' to hell!!!

My theory is that the defeat of Alduin would trigger another Dragon Break. Essentially, I suspect we may see TES retconned a bit after Skyrim lol. I could be wrong of course, though. Basically I see three possibilities.

1) We do not defeat Alduin. The world is literally destroyed and recreated. TES is retconned and resets. 2) We do defeat Alduin, but this just eliminates the fatalistic, destroyer facet from whatever Akatosh is. Or 3) We defeat Alduin, and it damages time itself somehow, causing another Dragon Break. TES is retconned but does not reset entirely; it merely redistributes itself so that the time and setting are the same, but the world is somehow changed again, perhaps in such a way that we never stopped the world from being destroyed, but delayed it again somehow.

Hmmm... interesting thought: could the world being eaten and remade be substituted for by a Dragon Break? In a sense, that IS one world ending, and another being created. Perhaps in some metaphysical sense, this temporarily satisfies the nature of Akatosh/Alduin and delays or prevents the destruction of the world for another few millenia?

As for them being one and the same, this is a good example of how divine entities in TES lore are often avataric or archetypal in nature rather than clearly defined or singular in nature.

- from An Overview of Gods and Worship.

That's just one crude, non-specific example, but it demonstrates a clear pattern in TES lore. Deities, or at least aspects of them, are affected by belief and worship. Deities can exist in multiple forms. And more than one interpretation or theory regarding deities can be true simultaneously. So it really isn't contradictory or mutually exclusive to say that Akatosh and Alduin could be one and the same. That's just a part of how TES lore works, both with respect to smaller more defined deities or concepts such as Vivec (who was both a god with extradimensional awareness and virtual immortality in physical form, but also just a man using profane enchantments depending on your perspective,) and grander, less comprehensible ones such as Akatosh being time as well as Alduin the World Eater.

Yeah, i think we're all a bit confused



Let's repent together!

Well, considering a civil war is about to break out, it wouldn't be illogical to assume that that is why alduin wants to destroy the world, similar to god causing the Flood when the world became "evil" in Noah's Ark

That could be! But didn't god just destroy the people of that region?