Have Bethesda ever stated that the Chinese AR or the American AR (F3) aren't canon, their non-appearance doesn't suddenly make them non-canon.......by this standard that a huge number of weapons that have suddenly become non-canon for no particular reason. Also cats were never non-canon really since their supposed extinction is only mentioned in a non-canon game

There are no Assault Rifle on the US Civilian market, even being non-american (the arrogance of assuming that everybody on the forum is either american or should know american laws aside) I am aware of the widespread civilian use of the Armalite rifle which is NOT an assault rifle the ravings of US politicians aside, looking like an assault rifle doesn't make it an assault rifle, once again if its not capable of automatic fire its not an assault rifle in any shape or form.

Nope, no svck implied. I am critical of Bethesda because I love their work and I want them to improve in the areas I feel they have horrible shortcomings and guns are one such area. In fact they're one of few, if not the only, AAA studio left I have any faith in to create quality content. The only thing I hate is Bethesda has a horrible 'complacency syndrome' in their design which can be a bit sigh inducing sometimes.

This is a thread about guns, if they're here to be a nuisance and blindly defend Bethesda without properly understanding the thread, it's pretty obvious who they are and they will not have any insightful contribution to the thread. It's not much different than trying to argue with a troll to be honest. That said however, I think Bethesda needs to focus on guns and the accuracy of how their guns work and perform. Not only to appease gun nuts (I am not a gun nut, admittedly. I just like certain guns and I like the sound of powerful rounds and assault rifle fire. The carnage is the juice for me.) but because guns are a core element in Fallout. Sure, you might go "Pfft, whatever. It's about the exploring!" But if Bethesda made a new patch and all the guns looked blatantly plastic and they barely did damage, you'd complain that their textures don't look like a real gun and they don't help worth a damn. But that's because too many Bethesda fans who just play it because they like TES and don't care about the gunplay in-depth fail to realise that the guns in Fallout are a crucial and often taken for granted on just how vital their importance is. Let's look at New Vegas for a minute. What made it superior to Fallout 3 (In relation to guns here)? There were ammo types useful for different situations and mods to improve and personalise your gun you love most just a little more. Why? Because it gives you an edge against the critters of the Wasteland and the enemy raiders and their junky poorly held together hunting rifles. That's why I criticise their lack of focus on guns. Not because I hate Bethesda, I love them and their introducing me to Fallout. But my criticism is a desire to see them improve the series even more. Fallout 4 is leagues above Fallout 3, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its faults and it's important for Bethesda to know where their weak spots are so they can step up their game.

Two things come to mind. One I have already mentioned. There are just so many weapons you can put in to game using your resources.

Second is that gameplay wise, these no reason to have two similar weapons when both of them can be extensively moded. You would end up with many weapons which would overlap each other in their abilities and differ only in appearance.

I disagree. Automatic weapon outshouts semi auto in the same caliber at short to mid range distances. The reason why automatic weapons seems to under perform is that weapons in more powerful cartridge categories lack automatic receiver mods (which is reasonable) and fact that given how armour works in game, weapons with low damage value of individual shots perform poorly against heavily armored targets (but that's valid for all weapons). But that's where armour piercing receivers comes in handy. You also have several weapons with higher damage per shot in energy category which perform very well in automatic mode and there is automatic receiver for battle rifle. Battle rifle on auto rocks.

Having more options is always nice, I am not going to argue with that. But that's not quit the same thing as writing "who the hell designed these damn guns?". Can you see what's wrong with that question?

Where did I said that Chinese AR or AR from Fallout 3 are non canon?

Who again said they became non canon? Bethesda? Where?

Fallout 2 is non canon game? Since when?

Well said, Colonel Martyr.

And I agree. Bethesda games are about the only console games I am even interested in purchasing as far as new releases go. So, any criticism that someone has should be shared so long as it is presented in a reasonable manner.

Are you even reading what your writing?

I wrote that there were two good canon AR designs from F3 and you replied....

Canon is what designer decides is canon.

So it was you that suggested they weren't canon.

As for the cats, it was the non-canon XBOX fallout: BOS game that said cats were extinct, along with a claim by Mr House in NV who apparently believes cats are extinct (how he would know is another question), when did Fallout 2 ever claim that cats were extinct? Cats are mentioned as being used in the creation of Centaurs and a NPC's cat being eaten when she was a child, but I cannot recall any other mention of cats in the original games.

Empty claims.

There are plenty of reasons why make weapons more heavy: firepower, reliability, stability, maintenance. You pretend as if weight would be only thing that matters in a design of weapons. Seems it's you who does not understand the basic engineering of firearms.

Are you kidding me? Gun powder is technology from 1000AD. Every single gun is still using it today. Sure, there is no reason to use 100 years old tech if you can use 1000 years tech, isn't there? You may also check when wheels on your car were invented. That will be surprise.

Your understanding of basic engineering is exceptional.

Oh really? Tell me, when was Thompson SMG invented then?

At last you understand basics of engineering...

I suggested nothing of the sort.

No it was Fallout 2 which established that cats are extinct. It's told to player by Stacy in the Den. Get your facts strait.

Isn't Stacy the one who cat was eaten as a child?

Edit: Just checked she says her cat was killed and the west coast wastelanders were eating cats, no claim of extinction.

Please If your going to be obnoxious in your postings could you back up any of your facts with any you know facts. Where in Fallout 2 does anybody claim all cats are extinct?

As for the F3 assault rifles, if you didn't mean they were now non-canon your post doesn't make a lot of sense.

So for the record the canon F3 assault rifles were actually assault rifles since they fulfill the characteristics of an actual assault rifle......a single shot rifle is not an assault rifle.

I'm not even sure how to reply to you. You keep arguing in misdirected fallacies that I'm not even sure if I try to explain it to you that you'd properly understand. Not to mention you're being incredible rude. However, I will try to explain this. If it's apparent you're not going to get it, I'm not going to waste my time explaining Diogenes to the bullfrogs.

In regards to the technology: The Fallout universe is not stuck in 1950s technology. The culture largely stayed the same, but it's apparent that there were distinct cultural changes as well as clear documented changes and advances in technology (some of said advances being antiquated by our world's standards). Now, your gunpowder point is entirely off-point and you're arguing an unrelated point. There has not been a convenient replacement for gunpowder in combustion firearms like there has in weapons design since World War 1, both in our world and the Fallout world. You're making a false point to prop up your own argument despite it being wrong from the perspective you're trying to argue.

Further, you're also missing the point on Conrad's statement. He is not saying that the Thompson wasn't made in the 1920s. He's saying that it's illogical that the world of Fallout, with a strong resemblance to our 1950s and early 1960s, would prefer to stick to using weapons from the 1920s when the 1930s on have produced weapons of much more pragmatic use.

Well if you misquote me it certainly appears so. I was clearly talking about assault rifles. The fact that this weapon fires a a light low recoil 5.56mm round and who's role is that of an assault weapon, means there is no need for it to be heavy or unwieldly. If you knew anything about calibers or weapon roles you would know this.

Once again you are incorrect and proving your own lack of understanding. BLACK POWDER and smokeless powder are not the same thing. One was replaced by the other more efficient version exactly like I explained.

The Thompson was adopted by the us military in 1938 and used until 1971. Well within the 1950's timeframe this game draws inspiration from.



As you can see every "point" you listed is not only factually incorrect it only serves to further prove what I said in the first place.

At this point I am going to call this one beyond hope if you ignore all the facts I provided and continue to argue.

You are either:
1) a troll looking to pick a fight.
2) beyond hope of teaching.

In either case I am done, I will not respond to any further baiting.

Stacy: "People would hunt them because they were so easy prey. None of them are around anymore because of it."

You should check your checking skill if your going to be obnoxious. Please.

I newer said that any weapon from any Fallout is non canon. I simply said that what's canon and what's not is decided by developers. What I meant by that is that just because Chinese rifle or AR are canon does not mean that F4 can not have different assault rifle.

Every assault rifle can be moded to fire single shot only.

So your're claiming that one NPC in California saying that there are no cats around locally, somehow means that cats were officially extinct globally or even with the continental US...... Words fail as to how foolish that claim is.

As for the obnoxious, simply repeating it back doesn't change your posting style which actually detracts from your argument.

Again to be an actual assault rifle it would have to be capable of automatic fire as standard, much like a SMG is a Sub Machine gun because of the caliber it fires, its size/weight and the fact that it is capable of automatic fire, the fact that you can mod an assault rifle to only fire single shot in no way means that a single shot weapon is an assault rifle. Some research into weapon types would help your arguments, although i'm not actually sure what your argument is beyond any criticism in any form will not be tolerated.

So the new F4 assault rifle isn't actually an assault rifle since it fails in the primary role of an assault rifle, Bethesda are free to create any weapon they wish and we are free to point out that calling something an assault rifle doesn't make it one anymore than calling a stick a sword makes it one.

Keep your lecturing to somebody who is interesting in it and stick to the arguments. I am polite to those who are polite to me.

I newer said it is. I am not one demanding to have WWII era weapons like M1911 in game. I said it is not struck in our post 1950 technology.

False point. There is laser and plasma in Fallout.

F4 Assault rifle is not from 1920. Conrad's statement is not about guns made in 20ties but guns "based on 1920's versions". That's quote.

Feel free to quote Stacy using word "locally" in her dialogue. Foolish are your attempts at the manipulation.

Stacy, who I actually mentioned before you used her as 'evidence' lives in California, there is no evidence anywhere in the game that the population of post apocalyptic California have any real knowledge of the rest of the world or even the US, Canada or Mexico. There is no manipulation that is just a fact, there is no point in Fallout 2 where cats are claimed to be extinct beyond there being none around anymore where she lived.

The only times the claim is made is in Fallout: BOS (which is non canon) and by Mr House in Fallout: NV (Who lives in a capsule and is limited in his actual knowledge of the Wasteland to his own area).

So there is actually only one canon claim that cats were extinct (by Mr House).......interestingly cats were planned in Van Buren, so there was very little evidence to back up the extinction claim.

You can make the claim that cats are extinct in California and Nevada but beyond that it doubtful that the sources could know about the rest of the US or the world expect in the most broad terms.

Feel free to quote Stacy saying "none around anymore where I live".

There aren't any elephants, rhinos, lions, tigers, cheetahs, buffalo, dolphins etc, etc, etc.......I'm unsure if you actually believe that the lack of animal where you live makes it extinct, but maybe you should look it up.

I'll continue with the actual quote that makes no claim of extinction in the US or the rest of the world.

Im not going to cover all of this and this point has already been made, but keep this in mind. The style of the Fallout series has been around WWI & WWII Americana as well as Cold War references. A lot of the weapons from those periods are out of date and are somewhat similar to what Fallout 4 shows. That being said, they are losing some consistency from the previous games as the machineguns do look very old compared to Assault Rifles in Fallout 3. I'm fine with it since my clunky old machinegun has an endless clip. I'd suggest just sitting back and enjoying the game like you have been haha.

The Assault Rifle presented in Fallout 4 can sort of makes sense... think of it in these terms, Power Armor was a brand new thing, just 10 years from initial fielding and in that short period there were at least three mass produced lines (the T-45, T-51 and T-60) with several variants of each (A-F). It was a brand new thing that was being heavily experimented with. To go along with that, there was a resurgence of weapon design, weight wasnt nearly as much of an issue anymore. TTPs were still under development. The F4 Assault Rifle may be an early design to make a standard issue rifle for power armor troops, the small caliber would use existing stockpiles of munitions, the water cooled barrel was for continuous use instead of short burst fire. Perhaps the idea was each soldier would be a walking tank laying down huge barrages of small arms fire to suppress enemies. unlike other fighting vehicles that could man multiple weapons at once, a PA trooper would need one weapon that fired for longer periods and had to find a way to deal with all the extra heat that generated. The R91 could have been shuffled around to specific units where Power Armor wasn't fielded in huge numbers such as the capital region. The Combat Rifle was a new issue item for non Power Armor troops who would be using terrain and cover far more, it could be a second line weapon, similar to a PDW in the .45 variant and a DMR/scout rifle in the .308. It would support the suppressing fire of the PA troops assault barrage with targeted higher impact .308 shots. In general everyone was reeling from the way Power Armor changed the battlefield and this was a stumbling first step to adapting to it.

On a side note about the assault rifle in the real world thing... It is entirely legal to own an assault rifle in the US in the real world. It must have been manufactured prior to 1984 and you have to pay a tax stamp for it but that is about it. some states further restrict or regulate them. The scarcity of these pre-84 guns does raise the price up considerably though, the cheapest of them are well over $3,000 with something like an actual M16 or real assault rifle costing at least $16,000. The vast majority of what people are calling assault rifles is a misnomer, the news will also call these "assault weapons" as a nod to the fact that they dont actually meet the definition of an assault rifle. Sometimes they are also called "black rifles" in another attempt to single them out as something other than a semi automatic firearm chambered in an intermediate cartridge. The Fallout universe never seemed to develop the gun control regimes of our world, thus semi-auto rifles tend to only be dedicated hunting weapons where the concept of sport dictates magazine size and firing mechanisms or things in full sized rifle rounds that arent very useful in automatic firing without something like power armor to control recoil.

Also, because apparently cats are now a point of contention, commonly domesticated animals such as specific breeds of dog or cat could have survived in Vaults and been re-introduced as vaults failed/opened etc. Someone outside of the vaults could easily believe something was extinct only for it to come crawling out of a vault or lab somewhere. It is very fitting in the setting for someone suitably influential enough to have kicked out some resident who was supposed to make it to safety so they could free up space for their favorite pets to survive the apocalypse.

I'd assume that the new 'assault' rifle is cooled by something other than water since that tech was abandoned by everybody after WW1, but I can see it being used as a national guard weapon for power armor. Still the fact that it has to be modded to turn it into an automatic weapon makes no sense, since that is part of the definition of what an assault rifle is, its like a SMG that isn't an automatic weapon or a rocket that doesn't fire rockets.

The lack of the F3 American assault rifle however still makes little sense since its canon for non powered US Infantry, especially when you find pipe weapons in US National Guard facilities.

So, from what I'm reading... we need a gun that fires cats?

Sure, it would make as much sense as a non-automatic assault rifle.........if not more really.

Alright, I'm sold. Cat gun it is. Bethesda, we need our Junk, so let's just make the Junk Gun fire kitties, be cause we can't build water purifiers with those.