We have had the same discussion about horses, even if we say that they are extinct where the Fallout games have happened we cannot make such a claim worldwide unless its specifically stated that they were wiped out worldwide, even then there so tech allowing the reintroduction of extinct species.

I've never actually fired the Junk gun because that junks to valuable now to waste, hell I drop weaponry and armor to make more room for junk.

No matter what Boris from snatch says, heavy does not equal reliable.

The M60 was a less than reliable gun and it was named the pig for a reason.

To be fair the pre-war weapons from new vegas were better than the ones in F04. Hell even the post great war weapons are better *cough* ranger sequoia *cough*

And most were actually built post-war by a budding industry constructing them from pre-war schematics, so you weren't actually using 200+ year old weapons. Too bad Gunrunners hasn't spread their influence back east. Perhaps then we could have a proper antimateriel rifle, assault rifle, battle rifle, 1911, pump shotgun, a string of revolvers and lever actions, and a lightweight carbine that shoots the 5.56 rounds I am currently finding myself sitting on a pile of. We could also have a steady supply of AP, HP, incendiary, and even .50 explosive rounds. Wouldn't mind having a grenade launcher and a few 40mm incendiaries either. A little C4 and a few MFC Clusters would be nice too.

Maybe Gunrunners will send us a mail order catalog in a DLC, along with this new thing called a "reloading" bench. Eh, one can wish.

Yes, but that's not because of the weight, that's because faulty design. If it would have being made lighter, it would be no more reliable. Likely even less.

There are always contradicting aspects in a design of any gun. Using larger cartridge for example will generally increase firepower, lethality and penetration. At the same time it will increase weight and decrease controlability of automatic fire. So there are cons and pros and final design is result of compromise and finding right balance. What the right balance is depends on time, place, conditions and preference of the user. There's no one size fits all formula. There's no reason why fictional designers of F4 assault rifle would have to design their weapon using same criteria as we do. It's completely plausible that they could decide to sacrifice weight for advantage in firepower or something else. If the weapon would have being used with power armor, then increased weight would be no issue for example.

Now take that just as my speculation, Fallout is a game and there is no reason to take things in it too seriously and invent some explanations where there probably was just game designer creativity behind look of the things. I am just showing that there's nothing which would make design of assault rifle wrong in the context of Fallout setting. Quit the opposite, it fits Fallout universe very well.

Ranger Sequoia 45-70 Govt. SWC. Best weapon ever with cowboy, run and gun. Hurry someone mod this gun into FO4.

The 10mm round wasn't produced or released until 1983...so that caliber weapon has no business being in this game...unless abandoning the 9mm round for a slightly better round was a huge priority in the post-apocalyptic world.

Just throwing that out there.

Okay a question for those who think the new assault rifle is a good design, what about it fits the fallout universe and what makes it a good design.

My take is that is too heavy, single shot, has poor stats and is glaringly out of step with every other design in the game.....all in all I'd struggle to point to a worse assault rifle design, now maybe it works (after mods) as a light machine gun I really haven't wasted the junk trying to make it work as a weapon, I probably will have to at some point just to use up some of that 5.56mm ammo I've got lying around. As a work around i'd suggest adding the ability to mod the combat rifle to 5.56mm to fill the gap be added to the game or that hopefully they will add some of the F3 designs, the lack of their appearance is glaring in the assault rifle case where we have lack of any alternative to the new design.

Now if it was a specialist assault rifle for Power Armor which traded a high rate of fire (needing special cooling) for extra weight that would be be one thing but even modded it doesn't seem to be worth the weight and is widely outclassed by the combat rifle.

I may have to hold my nose and try to mod it into something workable as I currently need a reliable automatic weapon althrough I may just go with the laser rifle option......I'm currently using a maxed out .308 sniper combat rifle, a maxed out .44 (a certain bad guy's gun, renamed Retribution) and a maxed out endless ammo 10mm auto pistol (in effect a sub machine gun or machine pistol)

I will admit, I would love to be rocking the wasteland with an old rusty AK47.

I may try my hand at modding for the first time when the CK comes out and make one.

Yeah, I think I used the Sequoia and Medicine Stick for the most part of my Cowboy play through. I went through a bit of .45-70. Good news was, I could make my own and handload SWCs, which were badass rounds. I miss stuff like this in FO4 and am still scratching my head about that "assault" rifle. The mod system was ripe to have a New Vegas-type menu of weapons overlayed on top of it. Instead we get a combat rifle that shoots .45, and assault rifle designed after a WWI water cooled machine gun meant for static defense, a crap top of junked-up hand mades (granted, its a fun system to play around with for a while, but I'd be happy with just an AK or AR and being able to slap a suppressor on it at this point), and no ammo types nor any ability to breakdown the short tone of 5.56 ammo I'm not using, and convert it to .308.

If I was a troop wearing power armor, and I were to have a machine gun available to me where the weight didn't matter, then I'd have something like an M2 Browning. Then I could actually feel like a human tank.

I'm glad I'm not the only one annoyed by some of the firearm designs in this installment.

My only gripe is that the Combat Rifle uses 0.45 caliber rounds instead of what should be 5.56. If they patched this, I would be ok with everything else. Even if they don't patch it I'm sure somebody will mod it (if it hasn't already been done).

The Assault Rifle is fine for a LMG type weapon IMO but I can't wrap my head around the Combat Rifle firing pistol rounds...

the worst gun design is pipe weapons, no one want to use that.

The pipe guns and mod system are actually fun...for lower level SSs. I was having a great time as a level nothing, modding them all the while thinking I'm just paying my dues until I level up and get the 1911's, M-14s, AR and AKs that were surely coming. Yeah, that didn't work out so well for me.

The "assault" rifle and (supposed) .50 cal are so underwhelming that I just gave up and started using energy weapons...just like Bethesda apparently wants me to do...along with wearing power armor...with jet packs and oh, look at me I'm Ironman. They very clearly have a preferred way they want players to play this game and if its not your style, you're sort of left out with minimal choice. So much for freedom or saying yes to the player...well...unless your the player that plays the way they want you to play. Small arms need work.

Having said that, I still do love this game's atmosphere and exploration. It's a great game. It truly is. Their vision of weapons and armor is the only thing holding it back in my view. But that's a big deal for me...and apparently others. Obsidian teed them up for success in that respect and they decided on a different direction. Hey, its their property; they'll do what they want I suppose. It just would have been near perfect with the gold nugget weapons of New Vegas updated and thrown in coupled with an updating (not throwing out) ammo types, ammo crafting, reloading, expanded explosives, and integrating them into this over-the-top crafting system. These are the things we engage the FO world with, and they should have been a tad more open-minded about what to cut, what to keep and what to expand.

So, let me get this straight...

OP is complaining that the guns aren't always true to 21st Century IRL guns, or at least don't seem to make sense for the weapons of 21st Century warfare in the real or fictional timelines. Sound about right?

Okay. IT IS A GAME. IT IS NOT A SIMULATOR. Let's have that much clear.

Now, SOME weapons in the GAME seem fairly true to life. The hunting and sniper rifles are timeless classics. The .44 revolver, too. Fallout 4's base missile launcher is much more RPG-7-like than anything seen before, which I kind of appreciate and kind of don't.

On the other hand, the game relies on football-size nuclear weapons (a theoretical and practical impossibility, lest we throw out everything we know about PHYSICS and all that pesky 'critical mass' nonsense), laser weapons (in the REAL world of transistors and all that, we haven't yet worked out lasers as large-scale weapon systems, and any man-portable version is WAY off), 'plasma' weapons, and virtually weightless fusion-based power cells producing relatively enormous amounts of energy.

That is, a lot of stuff that is simply NOT happening.

We were kinda spoiled by New Vegas, with the Marksman's Carbine, Service Rifle, Assault Carbine, and so on. No doubt, I loved the All American (lifetime member of the 82d Airborne Division Association, so naturally ...) and used the daylights out of it. And it almost makes sense. The US Army adopted the M-16 in the 60s. Close enough.

But again, this is just a GAME. If you want the ultra-realistic weapon models, you wouldn't be playing a Fallout title. Go get your fix for that in some other game, and come back here to have some goofy fun in an alternate timeline post-apocalyptic future, where Mad Max meets The Simpsons.

Or else explain to me how I can detonate a live hand grenade on top of a desk next to a desktop computer with a CRT monitor, killing the 8-foot-tall humanoid monster next to it but leaving the vacuum-tube-powered computer terminal fully and perfectly functional. Or explain how it is that the radiation storms ONLY irradiate me when the lightning flashes. Etc.

No, realism isn't welcome here. It was banished to make room for FUN.

Greetings fellow paratrooper, also a Lifetime member of the 82d ABN Association (since 92) here. Agree with much of what you say, but New Vegas spoiled us too much as you say, we've waited a long time for this game, and asking for just some of that goodness is not over-reaching. If there's anyway to have it addressed in DLC, we'll keep on harping.

To me the game is great, adding the gold nuggets from NV (including things more than just weapons) would make it near perfect. More choice is always better. I want everyone to get what they want. Bethesda is making a ton of money, and the consumers of their product should always ask for more.

Mods will come, sure, but they will never deliver a reloading system like New Vegas complete with casings/hull drops and handloads. It will just be a generic make .45 rounds crafting interface. Choosing better weapon designs as opposed to this PPSh/BAR/Thompson hybrid thing they've got going on would be a plus for me. A .45 cal rifle? C'mon man. No rifle in the world uses it. It's a pistol cartridge expanded to SMGs. Chamber it in 5.56 then I can use those rounds. as opposed to letting them pile up because the "assault" rifle is rubbish. May not be the OPs perspective, but it is mine.

ALL THE WAY!

AIRBORNE!

Hey, I have spent casings clinking on the ground in Fallout 4.

Also, who above was dissin' my PIG?!?!?!?!? SINGLE BEST FIREARM EVER! A well-maintained M-60 is a beast. They had THOSE in New Vegas, too, y'know... Sorta...

I might kinda like having the reloading benches again in F4 (and being a newbie reloader IRL, I found it pretty interesting), but I won't mind if we don't see it. I doubt we will. Since we have armor-piercing receiver mods, it would be all doubly-redundant to be able to craft armor-piercing ammo. So I think the plan was to abandon the ammo crafting.

But I really would love to have that All American back (since '06, BTW... but retired in '13) for this game.

The M-60 is clearly the best medium machinegun in the world! Some guy was arguing earlier that the Vickers and Maxim guns of WWI were somehow a preferred choice...(yes, I rolled my eyes as I responded), and they might have been if you're in a static defense and where you don't have to move that elephant. Water cooled...just no. But you and I both know static defenses are for those that lack the fortitude to attack...therefore the M-60--portability AND knock down/shoot through walls power...and air cooled anyday baby.

I've been reloading since my Bragg days and really miss this in FO4. Like you said, very spoiled indeed. Never thought they wouldn't include it with this way over the top crafting system they have.

Yeah, just having a AA carbine would change the whole landscape of guns for me in FO4. Then I could actually use the pile of 5.56 I'm sitting on.

It is a great game anyway, but I want it to be as close to perfect as we can get.

Take care brother!

Well, I was trained and handled a MG3 (LMG /M62 is the danish designation) for several years in the army as a light recce LMG gunner (no helper and no tripod). So having no experience with the M60 (altho the danish army now have the lighter version of it, the M60 E6) I of course have to say that the MG3 is the best! It is a beast when you know how to handle it!

The assault rifle looks bad because a) we had good assault rifles anyway from earlier games. it isn't even an assault rifle it's an LMG if anything and c) I used the same gun in assassins creed syndicate 3 weeks ago (and red dead redemption before that) the only difference was you had to turn a wheel to feed the bullets. So yea a gun that was already designed and in use in the 1800s doesn't really fit 100 years later in 1950, let alone 2077. It isn't even an assault rifle it's a heavy machine gun, not the same at all

Well i modded up the light machine gun.....sorry, i renamed it especially once I took a closer look at it and noticed its actually a m249 SAW in all but the liquid cooled barrel, really unimpressed in its performance.

Looking at the weapon design from a different perspective, I find the ammunition frequency and employment interesting. Let me know if these numbers seem correct to you.

.38 is the most common but is only natively chambered in one weapon class (pipe) There are however two other weapon types that can be downgraded(?) to .38.

10mm is very common but is also only natively chambered in one weapon class (10mm pistol) Can anything else be chambered for it? The Deliverer keeps the 10mm relevant but only if you join the faction that gives you that pistol.

Fusion Cells are the 2nd or 3rd most common type and are used by both Laser and Institute weapons, Lasers being common from Gunners and some mutants/raiders while institute Synth pop up most everywhere. It is the staple ammo and weapon type due to how well the damage scales and the availability of weapons and cells.

.45 is the first of what i'd consider uncommon ammunition types even though it is natively chambered in three weapon classes (pipe revolvers, submachine guns and combat rifles) Is anything else upgrade/down-gradable to .45? by the time you have enough to consider using it in a primary weapon two of those are obsolete though. Has anyone found a use for non legendary pipe revolvers or submachine guns?

.308 starts to get a little rarer but not much more so than .45. Two native weapons (bolt action pipe and hunting rifle) with one more that can be adapted to it. There are no full auto options in .308 so the rarity isn't much of a problem.

5.56mm is rare and only available in one weapon type natively and no other through modifications. This seems odd considering it is extremely common IRL and in Fallout 3 where even Chinese weapons were chambered in it to take advantage of the massive stockpiles available in the US.

.50 is rare and only used by specifically modified hunting rifles. the availability seems right though since it is fairly exclusively limited to sniper weapons.

Plasma Charges are rare and only used in the Plasma weapon class, somewhat hard to find and expensive to buy and they can be burned through quite quickly, a specific game choice to make it a very late game option perhaps? damage is great when using them in close to mid range encounters.

2mm is exclusive to the Gauss Rifle, is possibly the rarest ammo type for regularly occuring weapons but the weapon itself is fairly locked into being a slow firing sniper weapon for use on hard targets so availability doesnt actually feel that bad.

Flamer Fuel, Mini Nukes, Missiles (actually rockets but whatever) are all rare but that is not surprising considering those are the "heavies" 5mm somewhat falls into this too as it is exclusive to a heavy weapon and burns through so quickly.

My take away from it all is that the expected course for a player is to start with .38s, possibly upgrade to .45 for a short while and then regularly roll with a Fusion Cell weapon except in specific circumstances where you break out a specialist weapon.

It is strange that some ammo types are so locked down to weapon types. 10mm would be nice to see in a dedicated submachine gun again or a carbine of some kind. Who doesnt have huge stockpiles of it going to waste.

5.56mm would be ideal in a light rifle of some kind too. honestly it should have been the primary chambering for the combat rifle with .308 still being the upgrade. Something with a native short burst receiver that did higher damage per shot compared to other auto guns.

.38 doesnt really have a purpose past levels 15-20 unless you want to deck out all of your settlers with full auto pipe machine guns (an entirely feasible idea if you wanted to up-arm your settlements)

.45 would have been a nice upgrade option for the 10mm.

So yeah, the 10mm, .45 and 5.56mm are all in a kind of weird place in the game while the rest of the ammunition types/weapon classes make pretty good sense to me. i was a little surprised by the common nature of laser weapons but it fits the higher tech level available around the Commonwealth.

Looks like a decent assessment of ammunition densities.

I think chambering the combat rifle in 5.56 might have alleviated some of issue. .45 is not a mid to long range caliber. It is a strange choice of round for something resembling a battle rifle. It's a pistol/SMG round and should stay as such for the Tommy-like SMG...and some sort of 1911-type pistol that should have been the logical iteration up from the 10mm pistol.

I also would have included an actual 10mm SMG that looks like the previous versions.

.308 was just about right.

I think they probably felt some pressure to add in .50 cal, but they should have added a separate platform for it...like an actual antimateriel rifle, not an add-on to a platform never design (Rem 700) for such high energies and pressures. The Hecate-like AMR from NV would have done just fine.

I's fairly apparent at this point that the limited weapon types was a necessity to get the weapon mod crafting system in there had to be a hard limit on the actual platforms that would be moddable. As oppose to being this great new thing, it's actually been quite limiting. I think if they had gone overboard with the weapon crafting/modding thing for just the Pipe gun system, which would feed the fun factor of early game leveling, and limited the amount of mods for "real" weapons (and added several more RW hybrid-type designs) they would have hit the sweet spot.

I think we all know modders will take care of much of this, but we'll be waiting for a while for those mods to be developed. I still think it is something that the base game should have gotten right. I'm not sure the modders are going to like chambering everything left-handed since they are sticklers for ultra-realism...it's an animation limitation and I'm not sure anything in the game is properly chambered to be charged by the right hand. I suppose they'll figure out based on the limitations imposed.

And why is there no real weapons using .38?