It's more evidence than any opposing information given.

Granted, he couldn't have been the same Underking to fight the Kamal, that would have been Wulfharth.

..actually his man name was tiber septim and he became a god named talos, also as im sure u kno zurin was tibers battlemage and as said in daggerfall zurins heart was the mantella and the underking himself said he wasnted his heart i.e the mantella back so he could get the death he longed for. also as staed by morrowind and many other ppl on the forums that a quote in game is signed 'Zurin Arctus, Underking'.

I'll kindly ask you not to ignore the bevy of insightful information in this thread.

Don't get too caught up in technicalites. People still call Talos "Tiber Septim" when they are in fact separate entities, if you read between the lines of the relevant text.

There is a great deal of things like "mantling" and a phenomenon called the Enantiomorph that are involved in this topic. If you don't know much about those two things, then what Mortazo said will make no sense to you...as you have already shown by your comment.

edit: For the record, I'm pretty sure Mortazo was saying that, since Tiber Septim is technically not a real person (I'll kindly ask you to reread "http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/arcturian.shtml" again and just for the hey of it, go read http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/vivec.shtml THEN read "http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/wulfharthsongs.shtml") but more of a "role" in a sense; Talos Stormcrown was the nickname of Hjalti Early-Beard, the "first" Tiber Septim.

The Prophet seemed to be saying that they were the same, as did Martin. In addition to meeting Talos's avatar and being given a power called Luck of the Emporer.


The Arcturian Heresy contradicts other information, I prefer to take it and its predecessor with a grain of salt, especially given the tone of the book.

Ditto, good response.

But just to clarify, Tiber Septim is both an oversoul, and overlapping identity (it is an oversoul BECAUSE it is an overlapping identity). Many people bore the identity of Tiber Septim (one of those books has a list), and thus since all those different people WERE Tiber for all intents and purposes (beacuse they were all associated with that identity) they thus are all the same person.

Its like The Phantom. There were many different Phantoms, but since they all looked the same, acted the same, were called the same name and devoted their lives entirely to the job, there is basically only one undying Phantom. Tiber Septim is an identity beyond individuals, and Talos was just one of those individuals.

...Ok???

And this negates the research I've made how? Tiber has many heads.

edit: Some clarification: Arctus, Hjalti, and Wulfharth are all Tiber Septim.



You can take it with a POUND of salt; don't mean it doesn't have validity.

And I don't see any conclusive evidence for this, especially considering the considerable conflicts that stemmed between those three. And there was a seperate person who was known as Tiber Septim at the time.


It is an in-game source that contradicts other information and seems to have a less than professional tone. It isn't necessarily all lies, but I'm not going to accept it as all truth either.

To each his own.

It does seem that Martin was more than a pretty face - his 'death' form was quite spectacular - but does what he said prevent other stuff in this tangled web from being true?

Likewise with prophets they are wont to create stuff that can be read in many ways.


It may be true that they were part of the same thing at the same time or that they followed each other, taking turns to be that thing - and all according to the beliefs of whichever individual you consult ... maybe quoting the specific texts would help clarify where you are coming from?

I would not take The Arcturian Heresy seriously. Otherwise take it with two pounds of salt.

It contradicts lore that otherwise is agreed upon amongst various other sources, and the tone does not seem as professional and legitimate. I know that doesn't necessarily disqualify its validity, but it seems very off.

indeed....i believe that every person should be have there own opinion about this subject becasue there really is no answer to the question that was asked..all the evidence found about one will be combated with another pice of evidence about the other...also ive read the books youve suggested me and im sticking to my already mentioned opinion..so beleiv waht you belive and and i will belive what i belive

Think of it this way:

The God Tiber Septim=11111

Talos=1
Zurin Arctus=1
Ysmir=1
The Underking=1
Wulfharth=1

Make sense now?

Except that Ysmir=Wulfharth and Underking=Zurin or Wulfharth depending on how you like you're spirits so it is really 111

True but Ysmir=Talos=Pelinal Whitestrake=Wulfharth=etc.
No matter how you look at their all the same person, the number is irrelevant. It only serves to illustrate the point.

For simplicity's sake, three individuals were standing in the palace when things got ugly.


And guys, how much of the Heresy you accept is up to you, but the orthodox story completely omits the role of Wulfharth, because it is in large part a coverup. Some things aren't really up for serious debate. The prime example is that the only thing that is a ready replacement for Lorkhan's Heart is the soul of his avatar. How does soultrapping a little wizard get you something that only kings can touch that powers a brass god?

And who can trap the soul of Lorkhan's avatar but the avatar himself?

Not really, considering the Underking's meddling in Sancre Tor regarding a shrine to Tiber Septim and the fact that the name Tiber Septim was taken up while the Underking was still opposing him.

You just invoked a throwaway line from a loreless fetch quest to cast doubt on the Enantiomorph on the grounds that- get this- they can't be the same person because they are in conflict.

This begs the question...

ARE YOU INSANE?!?

I know you will make some very diminutive response to the first part of the post, but bear in mind that the essence of it is the sentence in caps, for ease of identification.

If you read Vehk's partial interview and THEN read the Five Songs (especially the part about "Vehk the devil" blasting Wulfharth) then you should be, in the very least, a little less confident in your idea.

Because if you read the partial interview (the part about Vehk killing Tiber Septim) and the part of the Five Songs (the part where Vehk blasts Wulfharth to ash), then you'll learn Tiber Septim was at Red Mountain. Because if you read these two parts, you'll learn Tiber Septim was at Red Mountain. Because if you read what I've stated earlier, you'd see that Tiber Septim was a "role"/oversoul in a sense. "Heresy" fleshes out this idea in a clandestine manner. Behold:


Do http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/lessons.shtml#11 to read why the holy institution of marriage, that is, the union of two into one, is synonymous with the unholy transgression of assassination. Heresy notes the confusion of Tiber Septim's identity again near the end. Once again, behold:


"How was Tiber at Red Mountain," you ask? Because Tiber ain't a real person. It's a role. Wulfharth played (a part of) that role.

edit: Cause I'm such a generous gent, I'll do some more quoting. Concerning assassination, behold:


http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml, behold:


During a marriage ceremony, what is commonly said by the preacher?


Honestly, TRULY am not trying to be a pompous ass. I TRULY want you to, in the least, question your current idea and attempt to contemplate the one I've submitted to you. Because when you think about it hard enough, it makes sense.

Welcome to the Lore-fest

There is one thing you might consider here: it is called The Arcturian Heresy for what reason? I'm not saying it is true or false you understand, simply that it is not a 'Guild/State-approved' Document - and so I would not expect it to be a 'professionally set out document' by reason of its very nature.


To others I believe this thread is about what your view is, as much as what the Lore 'dictates' so you can feel free to express your view

The Arcturian Heresy reads like crap, for all its importance. The one feeling I get from it is that it is a transcribed set of rumor or tales, or the contents of a tavern interview set down on paper.

No more insane than someone who takes vague speculation over in-game content.

Do not be so quick to assume that just because something is stated upfront in the game that it must be entirely true. And we are not speculating with nothing to back up what we say. We are implying through a systematic study of texts presented in game and out of game by the Devs.

No, he just never understands. They're the same exactly because they're in conflict.

It's the Rebel vs King stuff.

http://micromachine.stanford.edu/~hopcroft/Research/resonator_images/sin_mov1.gif

Sure helped me while reading through these threads. And how happy I was when I encountered it a second time!

I must say, I knew nothing about that part of the lore, and it is really really interesting. Wish I could play Daggerfall somehow.