I want to know what you guys think. The two general theories are that the Underking is either Zurin Arctus - Tiber Septim's battlemage, or King Wulfharth.

I think Zurin Arctus is much more logical. The people of Tamriel have conflicting views on how it happened, and Tiber Septim as a ruler. It seems more practical, however, that there was a power struggle as to how the Numidium is to be used after its original purpose at the hands of Tiber Septim. I don't see how exactly Arctus would be killed in the process of creating the Mantella. Just how exactly does this process work?

Secondly, is there a consensus on whether or not the "Underking", as a physical entity, is the withered, undead body of Zurin/Wulfharth or an entirely separate thing? The idea of the Numidium's destruction and loss of the Mantella implies Zurin Arctus merely died. However, unless I'm misinterpreting this, when Wulfharth is allegedly soultrapped to form the Mantella, he was already undead? And it claims in The Arcturian Heresy that he [Wulfharth] reverts back into ashes following this.

Additionally, the story has this excerpt:


Who is this? Zurin? If so, doesn't that make the "Zurin is the Underking" theory somewhat true, as in that story, he personally destroyed the Numidium (and in turn, himself) following the conflict with Tiber Septim?

So confusing...anybody care to enlighten me on this?

I can. There are 2-but-one Underkings. Arctus and Wulfharth are both the real Underking. I shall link you to a post of mine subsequently that details the technicalities involved in this confusing occurence.

http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=867740&st=0&p=12648434&#entry12648434

Long story short, Wulfharth was already technically an "Underking", Arctus becomes one in the process of creating the Mantella, but with the heart of Wulfharth, they are technically both one and the same, in a way?

Although the Underking in Daggerfall, if you want to refer to him as you would an individual person, is Zurin Arctus.

Yes.

Ask if you have more questions.

Might be irrelevant, but in the opening cutscene of Morrowind, this quote:



is labeled to be said by Zurin Arctus, the Underking.

http://www.imperial-library.info/tsomw/mw_1.shtml

The alleged physical body of the Underking in Daggerfall then, he is Arctus as well? The only true Wulfharth-thing that belongs to him is his heart?

Don't think you read my post thoroughly enough. Re read it along with the linked texts.

Zurin and Wulfharth are connected, in a sense, by the result of the ambush.

So to answer your question: yes and no.

He is Zurin because, when he got blasted in his heart by Wulfharth's heart along with the fact that Septim betrayed him, Zurin became the Underking. He's Wulfharth too because of the confusion present that makes Zurin think that the Mantella is HIS heart and the fact that Wulfharth was the "original" Underking...and the fact that both were betrayed.

That's what I meant, that Zurin wants his heart back, which is not his heart, but rather Wulfharth's.

Tiber Septim was the Underking.

......sorry for goin off topic but this is just not true because tiber septim is the god talos

I have to agree, this is the most compelling actual evidence I can find.

I have to say it's the best backing I have for my assumption.

The last time this topic came up, I practically got crucified for suggesting this was conclusive evidence of Zurin Arctus being the Underking.

Well if tiber and zurin have a Akatosh Lorkhan thing going on I guess that makes sense.

So? I don't see your point.

The god's name was Tiber, the man's name was Talos.

Arctus = Wulfharth = Talos = Underking = Tiber Septim

But Tiber Septim, Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus supposedly all lived at the same time though. Not to mention that the Underking sealed off a shrine of Talos.

Oh ffs people, EVERYONE is an avatar of Lorkhan in one way or another.

Which Underking are we talking about?

The Daggerfall one, the one who sought the Mantella, the one with the prized-too-much-as-evidence opening quote in Morrowind.

I still don't see what youse guys are trying to say.

Okay, we know that the underking's physical manifestation is Zurin Arctus, and the heart within the Mantella is Wulfharth.

I don't know how Tiber Septim/Talos plays a role in this. Talos is the divine, he is irrelevant. Tiber Septim, if I recall he's one of the Nord guys, perhaps even Wulfharth, but simultaneously as he's the emperor who has his battlemage create the Mantella, this makes no sense.

PARADOX!

Read up on your http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimurti.

And welcome to TES Lore.

Indeed. You can read my linked post for a lil insight on this.

Is it impossible to conceive of more than one soul being part of one being?

Looking at what appeared to be an attempt by Kagrenac to create a Numidium - putatively he stuffed the entire Dwemer race into his creation so they would all have been that Numidium simultaneously had that succeeded - and who is to say without fear of contradiction it did not?

Again Gods are more than and beyond mortal.

Chim(p) theory seems to state that Vekh became all - and that all was part of him.


Look at the dawn and Mythopeic eras and behold - entire races have been spawned from single beings - so the Numidium process would appear to be a reversal of this with a bit of mantling bunged in. Or try the Mechano God Kit.

See the Underking recipee: 1 part (heart) Arcturus, 1 part (spirits) Wolfheart and 2 small parts (mixed confusion) Tiber Septim/Talos + Mechano Metal God Kit - other ingredients optional - season repeatedly according to taste with your favorite mixes of assassination, murder and mayhem.

edit: recipe list of ingredients ammended = spirits and heart swopped as per LuciusZelgius description of ingredients