Who knew a simple question about the Courier could end up here?

I've never played a Fallout before 3 so my personal experience in how things have gone is somewhat limited. I have seen comments in the forums about how the FPS elements were introduced into what was an RPG game (Fallout) so it would have broader appeal. I'll take people at their word and if that's true, and if now some people want to eliminate even more elements of RPG, I completely understand why some people have their back up in defending the type of game they love....RPG. Why can't people share? I'm just happy the open world type game is here and I get to imagine what I want.

War never changes.

oops. double post, sorry.

Hrm well I guess DAO is a matter of opinion. I felt the origins gave me enough room to develop my character. Ever hear the old design adage about limitations making for a stronger piece in the end? It can easily be true with character development.

Same with Mass Effect. They tell you a couple very barebones things about your character, I don't understand why some people are making it out to be that they gave you a character fully made.

If you want to give an example of a character you have no effect on, point to Final Fantasy. ME and DAO had tons of room for your own development.

Now, they didn't have room for shallow gimmicky 'roleplay' like some of the examples being thrown around (space monkey etc, even the 'Elvis' roleplay somewhat falls under this purview). But I understand those examples are being used for brevity, it would be rather difficult to post about deep character and emotional development



Wow 6 years. I guess you're right. I need to become a billionaire so I can hire a great team, throw millions of dollars at them, and say "you have 10 years to make the greatest RPG ever, get on it"



Haha there is definitely a vibe sometimes:

"Yeah, it's totally fine that you want more background, we real RPers disagree, but I totally respect that. (Even though you are lazy, have no imagination, and are probably a 12 year old Halo gamer with no RPG background)"

PS: Jokes people, jokes :angel:

hmmm... I assumed that after being shot in the head, you maybe didn't have any memories and was just starting fresh from that point on

But if an NCR Trooper came up to me and said "Hey, you look familiar, did you ever serve at x?" You could reply with "yes," "no," or "maybe" and it validates your story. It actually isn't that much work. An ex-NCR soldier isn't going to be on anyone's radar, since 99% of people won't know you or care; it also doesn't affect any faction relationships. You could be an ex-NCR soldier but still join Legion. Each "start" could even give you some random items at the game ala the bonus DLC packs. Those small details add a lot of atmosphere to the sledgehammer opening they slap us around with for our friendly neighborhood fallout boy, in my opinion at least. It's just a middle ground solution I thought up to argue my point. I don't feel like defending it ad nausea, because we all know who screams loudest longest is absolutely correct. If you don't think it's beneficial to have this imaginary feature, which still allows you an actual Blank Slate option, then the problem is that you don't want to compromise, not that it's a bad idea.

I guess the argument is really just between you basemant dwelling 40 year old virgin D&D players and us overweight 13 year old Halo fanboiz...

Dragon Age's origins (hence the name of the game) were integral to the entire story, affecting how most people reacted to you. That's not anywhere near the level I'm talking about. I'm talking about a handful of vague conversation topics or maybe a few freeform quests that doesn't interfere with anything, but adds character and a tactile bond with your real life self, and your in-game alter ego. How long it took to develop that game isn't relevant to this, as you're comparing apples to oranges. Adding in a few minor tweaks to an established game and engine with a fairly easy to use SDK has nothing to do with building a new game on a (I'm assuming, but I'm sure I'll be corrected) new engine, and doing it with such high quality results. I enjoyed Dragon Age, but for different reasons than I enjoy Oblivion with Guns. B)





I think calling it a chore is a bit of a stretch. I didn't identify very much with F3's character because so many of his dialogue topics were 180 away from what I really wanted to say. It took a good bit of RP mind boggling to be happy with him for me. It's not hard to come up with a little background for yourself, but it's disappointing to me for what they did include, and how they included it. It's not a Blank Slate for me, and I've obviously been around in Vegas area for at least a short while, but nothing worthwhile can be assumed about yourself.




Emotional attachment could run high if you aspired to be nothing more than an Elvis impersonator in real life. 8) Brevity is still allowed, no?

The John/Jane Shepard comparison may not be the best one to make if only because we are given the option of choosing between three backgrounds and then three service records. Hanging around the Bioware forums has shown me that it's possible to work around these character limitations with some ingenuity. No matter how elaborate your imagination might be, I still get the sense that my interactions with New Vegas characters feels one-sided; doesn't matter what rules I set out for my creation. They talk, but my character doesn't. They have a history, but mine is a blank slate that cannot be acknowledged by anyone else, save for any current actions I take in the game. At what point does the player turn into a character in the game?

Fallout 3 took a different, much more limited approach but was just as alienating because even though I enjoy playing paragon characters, I found it hard to come up with a character that had justifiable reasons to become the Wasteland's worst nightmare. Not to mention the fact that I have only one origin, Vault 101, and a set age.

What I am beginning to question is if the lack of emotional investment I have in my character is due to my interaction with other NPCs rather than an absence of a background story. It's not like I can start a romance with any of the characters or build a meaningful friendship---and I don't think that helping a companion with their special quest fulfills the latter point automatically. As the main character I'm always the helper and at the end of the game, I'm still alone walking along railroad tracks.

I think the vast majority of posters on this thread would say that they did enjoy the game overall - and that for those who found the lack of backstory to be annoying, surely that's just a little niggle in a much better, bigger picture? I'm sure those who liked the openness in this game felt the same kind of niggle when faced with the main char. in F:3 - but still liked the game overall. So it evens out pretty good

Oh, I love the game and there a good points to be made for both story telling methods......I just wish the game packed a more emotional punch with regards to my character, not just the others around me.

I'm going to do something really rare on the internets: I concede your point. That's actually a good idea.

I think they could have added more bonds between characters, and I hope they do in the coming DLC. Cass should have been a romance option for men, and Boone for women... though I guess they don't want to 'copy Bioware'.

Yeah, but relationships between the player's character and NPCs isn't a strong suit of Bethesda or Obsidian, it seems. I just want my character to be less iconic and more real, at least in the game's universe. That I can choose to roleplay as a scientist with weak combat abilities and a bit of a backstory all feels very superficial when this does not translate into deeper ties with other characters.

(For that matter why do I only see my character with two facial expressions: neutral or angry? <_< )

You can take it however you want but it's true, I happen to like both, I liked fo3s and I like fnv, it's not that big a deal. I also didn't say anyone was stupid. Some people like will ferrell movies some like movies like In The Bedroom, it doesn't mean someone is stupid for like will ferrell movies so don't twist my words.

"Some people like movies and games that don't cause them to think, some people like things that make us think, you can't make everyone happy. "

Solely based on the statement above, I don't think I twisted your words around. If that's the case, then you should have clarified your point in the initial post because as it stands, you're just implying that one play style is favored by people who lack imagination while that's not the case with another play style. Players can be just as imaginative when given a more limited set-up for character creation.

And I said think not stupid nor did I say that some people lack imagination so yes you did twist my words saying I said people who like movies and games that don't make them think are stupid.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, but that's what I meant when I mentioned you can pick from multiple histories and personalities with John/Jane, and they're all acknowledged by the game thus further developing the character on-screen FOR the player rather than the player doing it themselves. Of course I know some die-hard roleplayers are going to either write their character history around or completely ignore the backgrounds and service records, but that's kinda what I meant when I said things like this can't be compromised because I'm sure these individuals would've just liked there to be no mention of backgrounds or service records in the first place.


For me, the current actions I took in the game is pretty much what did it for me.


I will grant you that having a further history that people could talk to you about helps to further establish your character through dialogue, but you know what they say: Actions speak louder than words. What you do probably hints at what your history has been like, which of course, was made up by you in the first place.


And a set dad. Seriously, though, I found it hard as well since kids who generally grow up in sheltered surroundings with a parent like James ("Dad") in the game usually don't grow up to be eager to literally set off a nuclear explosion in the middle of a town. Of course, like the good people in the Bioware forums, I'm sure if we brainstormed long enough we could cook up some justification for it. Maybe the Lone Wanderer got bullied so much by the Tunnel Snakes and other kids in the Vault for so long that he developed this mentality that the world made up by only two people: The bullies and the bullied. So he'd run off and nuke a town just to prove he isn't one to mess with.


If I may digress on the subject of romance specifically: After Dragon Age, I'm beginning to think that it's becoming an overwrought theme to a lot of their games. Well, not the romance specifically, but how it's mechanically handled in the game itself. It starts to be like a "Dating Sim" game where you try and figure out what tickles your affection's fancy to try and get some bar to fill up over a certain limit so that you can have six with them. I haven't played Mass Effect 2, yet, but I heard it's practically the same way ("Hey folks! Look! You can now have six with up to 3, count 'em, THREE NPCs! Some of them aliens!"). Up until Dragon Age, though, I thought it was well handled in the other Bioware games I've played until that point (like the romance between Shepard and Doctor Liara in ME1, and Knights of the Old Republic 1).

Anyhow, back to the subject at hand, I'd argue your emotional investment comes from your own acknowledgement of your character's history, which you made up yourself. Granted, the game doesn't acknowledge it as much as having an established character with an established background would have, but it does acknowledge your character at points as we're discussing right now: Due to your character's present actions, and especially during New Vegas's ending slides. At certain points in the game, and during the ending slides, I really did get that feeling of "Yay, my character's a hero!"

That's all fine and dandy, sure, but the GAME will not recognize my THOUGHTS no matter how hard I try or want it to be so. If I think i'm some ex Fiend junkie who's trying to do good by my late grandfather who took me in when my parents got killed in an NCR raid of the south vegas ruins ten years ago, and now, with heavy regret and remorse for my actions, I join up with the NCR and do one tour before going to bitter springs and murdering the khan women and children. Disgusted with my actions, I desert the NCR army and join up with Mr. House, seeing his logical reasoning for keeping vegas out of the clutches of opportunistic savages like the NCR and CL.

I just RP'ed all ofthat... now is the game gonna give two @^$#'s if I came up with that? Is it going to recognize that,

"Hey, that's a pretty cool background, we don't have one for your character in this game 'cus we were too lazy to do it and are just giving the excuse of us wanting you to be able to be creative and have a semi-blank slate, but unfortunately, voice recognition technology isn't up to the level where we can implement any of your thoughts into the game, so, yeah, no matter what you're just going to be a generic sprite with a gun with no backstory and everyone will treat and interract with you the same way no matter what you THINK you are".

That's essentially my point... you say "make up your backstory" but let's just think here... if you had a backstory, people would treat you one way or another, so if you say, had, one for each major faction (NCR, CL, Followers, Brotherhood, Khans, Vegas strip families/House) you would at least have five different routes to take and interract with, and also, the way you complete some quests would influence how people treat you, like say you completed "That Lucky Old SUn" and gave the energy to Archimedes, playing the brotherhood background, your bunker buddies would be like, "Awesome man! Now we can have something to push back those degenerate NCR types! Weeeee!!!!" or if you completed "Oh My Papa" as the Khan background, the khans would say something like, "YOu know, before, we had our doubts about you, being a free spirit and deserting us, but after what you did....we know where your heart and loyalties lie".

If you went the way we have now.... No one IN THE GAME cares about what you RP about... no one....

Me and at least some other people want the GAME to recognize our character's background, for the character to have some ties with someone in game that are meaningful because of the character's upbringing and life before we get to control the character. That's it... But somehow that seems like such a stupid idea... Why?


This isn't a table top RPG, there are no rules written down on paper, or 10 sided dice to roll, this is a VIDEO GAME and it is supposed to be THEIR STORY they tell US, it's not OUR STORY, we are just the boat traveling down the river, discovering the story that is unfolding before us, we are not writing us, it has already been written. The character's past and backstory should reflect that.


I don't think it's super difficult to write for five backgrounds, not every single quest or moment would need to reflect back on what your background is that you chose to play as, some people you help could just be Joe Schmoe people who have no idea who you are or give two flying ducks about and they just are glad you came by to help... sure. But give me something meaningful that happens in the game, not just in my mind


For your information, I do RP my characters, I think about what they say, I think about their past and interractions and relate them to other games and add in those ideas to my own, I do write stories about them and even sometimes dream about them in the game.

Does any of that ever matter to the game? No... That's why there's a backstory needed (or set of them) because I guess when it boils down to it, some of us want to be told a story, to cherish it, not to write the damn thing while I play >.>


one more thought... sometimes when I play, I don't care to make up stories about my character, i'm busy trying to decide if I have enough food for the trip and water, If I have enough meds to make it through and what companion to take, how many meds they need, ammunition, the weight of the ammo, my armor, repair kits, what types of weapons I want to use for what mission, what type of tactics to employ to efficiently get the job done... and what I want to sell back or use to repair so i'm not overweighted and can't get back to town... I already have too much to think about, I don't need one more thing on my plate burdening me.

THAT'S ALL lol...

sorry for the wall of text... I like to pack 5 posts in one .

One more thought and then i'll leave this discussion, it's obviously a stalemate, which is not a bad thing sometimes.

I get your point, RP people, you want unlimited starting space on the canvas, sure, I can understand that. But let me go back to the fanfiction example, it is written for books (movies/games) that are already complete, or perhaps in a series or something. The book has a well developed beginning, a middle, and end... like any proper story should. Everything is laid out and concrete, it cannot be changed, however, millions of people worldwide are not in a tissy about its concreteness, they are still able to RP as much as they want and create new, fresh outlooks and stories.

Why is such a thing as a backstory such a threat to precious RP? Why does it have to be an enemy? Do you not read books then, or see movies because you would rather RP and they are already cast in stone? No, i'm guessing not, i'm guess you do enjoy things with a concrete set up as much as the free form canvas things.

All i'm saying, is that it would be awful nice for some rudamentary questions to be answered, basic questions that anyone can think about...

Why did you character become a courier? To escape the legion's wrath after being set free in a slave raid and stay under the radar? Part of a long line of honorable, reliable couriers? It was the only work they could get and were near death from starvation, and the job payed caps? Because they have a family member that went missing in the Mojave in the vegas strip, and they want answers, so in the mean time do this sort of James Bond thing to discover their loved one's fate?

Why? I don't get it... why a mailman? of all things...

What kind of background does the courier have? Any family? Any previous relationships?

All of these things can be answered in game... sure, you can RP them, but they can be set in stone in game, and I think it be done vague enough (perhaps i'm not good at being vague for backstories) where RPers could fill the canvas, where the canvas would be empty enough for them.

I don't think it's such an unreasonable (someone hinted at idiotic even...) request. Maybe I just like how bethesda does things, certainly, I enjoy NV's middle, and some of the end options, but i'm trying to think logically here, why have a developed middle and an end, and relatively no beginning? Maybe I just don't get that kind of thought.

I guess I just like everything to have that "everything fitting and coming together moment" where all the peices fall into place and you go "ah ha!" for me, having no backstory just doesn't ever give me that "ah ha!" moment. There's no drive for me to go investigate where fallout 3, DAO and ME1 did that for me, among other games. Belive me, I've played some online MMORPG's so I've had abit of "needing to make a backstory" experience.

I guess it's either have something like NV, or have something more like Demons Souls (I loved that game) where the selling point isn't the STORY but it's instead either multiplayer, or an extremely open ended world, or some other thing where story comes SECOND instead of exploration, and i'm just wanting to be told a good story I suppose... and be able to melt someone with a plasma rifle in the same game.

Its interesting, From in game dialogue, The previous Courier saw your name and backed out in a fright, So you must be known beyond Nevada.
What else is there? The PC has been to New Reno, And maybe has a child of 18 years of age.
My guess is that there will be a DLC that expands upon it, If not, It dosent matter, It just adds something to your own background of your character.

We're told numerous times where the Courier had been living...............

.........under a rock.

I too am missing the immersion Fallout 3 gave the player's character. But that's about the only con for me.

First off, definitely not a wall of text. Both posts are very well laid out and thought out. You used the return key so it can't be a wall of text anyway. :laugh:

I myself am RPing it up, but I can appreciate your desire for a back story. I just don't see how five could do it, I mean there are certainly enough choices you can make in game to warrant more than that. Where is the courier from, that would need 3 choices: The Mojave, east, or west for starters. Then you have potential for current/past affiliations: tribes, NCR, CL, or none. Pro or anti authority. There are a couple more things that I could mention, but I think that's enough. I could see this working if Doc asked you questions and maybe gave you a little bit of a refresher on who was who and what was what. That could allow for a multitude of back stories. I would be all for that, but I have no idea how much work that would have been to implement it. Like you said, it doesn't have to a huge part of the story, but a little here and there. If we just had a screen with a few stories to choose from that had everything laid out, I'd be very disappointed. That was the one thing that bothered me about DAO, I always felt like I was forced into the choice, still a great game, but that just wasn't my favorite way to do it.

I just have to think of what sides to back now. I figure Kong would want to work with the brotherhood to gain their tech and maybe the NCR and The Octopus would probably work for whoever won't destroy the Dam.

Hi Guys

I played as female character in the game and when I confronted Benny in Gemoras he gave me the impression that he and courier six had a intimate relationship
before he double crossed and tried to kill her for the chip.

Also, when I finally caught up to Benny at the fort and I had to choose between killing him and letting him go he also mentioned something about forgetting what happened in the past between us and staring over or something along the line.

does this qualify as information about the couriers past......???

thanks

no one is arguing your point, which is absolutely viable. If you'd pay attention to others posts, again you would realize that no one is debating you view. People are just curious if the developers put in any clues as to the back round, ect... of the main character as was done in fallout 3.

Personally I agree with making your own back story in rpg's, but it is pure ignorance to state that an rpg back story has to be created by the player. There are countless rpg's with pasts, back story's, and more already there and created for you. Most of these leave room for personal interpretation and what is already there can and does usually evolve based on choice, skills, choices, ect. IMO, creating it yourself is what it's all about. With that said, it doesn't mean it's a golden rule. That's the beauty of these types of experiences. You can create all or some of your past, culture, ect based on the game or what you prefer. Just because I prefer to create more than another fellow gamer does not mean they lack creativity or anything of the sort. The same person who would rather have a past, partial or not created for them may give them more of a sense of purpose and therefore enjoyment out of this game just as the opposite would do it for me or you. Oh, and who's to say that the same person accused of lack of creativity for preferring a already created past isn't an artistic and/or creative genius in his/her own right, whether they be an artist, engineer, developer or any number of countless artistic involvements. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.