I understand Talos is Tiber Septim after apotheosis, but from my limited understanding of the lore, it would seem that people can only become deities through mantling another deity(usually weak or "dead").
The only major deity missing from the Cyrodilic pantheon being Lorkhan, does this mean Tiber Septim was mantling Lorkhan, becoming the Ninth Divine?

But wouldn't uniting all of the nations of Tamriel under Imperial law and ORDER be contrary to Lorkhan's pandomic/chaotic nature?

Everytime I read about Lorkhan I am told he is a trickster god and son of Pandomay/Chaos, but his polar opposite Akatosh representing time appears far more chaotic as a non-linear construct.
Am I perhaps misinterpreting Lorkhan as a chaotic deity, when he is really the order conforming Akatosh into a linear form?

Or am I just not supposed to get which of Lorkhan/Akatosh is chaotic or orderly? and what does this make Talos?

To answer your first question, I believe ONLY Lorkhan can be mantled. It doesn't work like that with any of the other gods.

I've never been clear on what specific things Tiber Septim did to mantle Lorkhan, or how and why, so I'm just as interested in hearing the answer to that as you are.

But doesn't the Nerevarine mantle Nerevar?
Or are they both mantling some aspect of Lorkhan, because I thought it was Azura who elevated Nerevar to some demi-god like status, such that he could be reincarnate.

The Nerevarine did go through the motions of becoming the Nerevarine, but it isn't the same thing. The same way that if you play through the Temple faction questline in Morrowind, you'd be going through the motions and imitating Vivec, but the player did not become a god because you can't mantle Vivec because he is not Lorkhan.

I think it was probably more of the Dunmeri worship of Nerevar that raised him to the hero-god-like status, though clearly Azura had some play in it. But reincarnation and mantling are two separate things, I think in a description of mantling somewhere it even makes a point to say that mantling is NOT reincarnation.

Oh, I need to find that text then, but what about Shivering Isles and the new Madgod?
I know he's not Lorkhan, but it's clearly not a reincarnation.

Nerevarine is "pantheon by incarnation." Read http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-hatta-sphinxmoth-inquiry-tree.

Shivering Isles is interesting. As everyone says in the main quest of SI, it's kind of something that's never been tried before. So it's not mantling, technically. "Mantling" as an anology might work here, but it's not the same because it doesn't echo the struggle of Lorkhan/Akatosh.

You're right that it's not incarnation either. But there is a need for a Mad God. He is the Sithis-shaped hole in the world. When Jyg was freed from his curse, he ensured there would be some spirit that could take on the burden of being Aurbis's dangerous whimsy.

These are my own thoughts, but -- whereas Mundus could do without someone like...oh let's say Peryite, I suspect Sheogorath is as essential to existence as any of the Aedra ever were.

maybe Sheogorath is mantling Lorkhan as a trickster/chaos deity, so we're mantling a mantle INCEPTION!

but is anybody able to clarify the nature of Lorkhan? or that supposed to be a mystery?

I think you were pretty accurate with your descriptions. Lorkhan's nature is change and possibility, or chaos.

The duality of Sheogorath/Jyggalag is more than a little similar to that of Lorkhan/Akatosh. I don't know how relevant that is as far as mantling goes though. As Penitrel said, the events of the Shivering Isles are a very unique case indeed.

Yeah, I can certainly see reflections of Lorkhan/Akatosh in the Sheogorath deal. Rebel/King, order/chaos, the deal with the heart...
I searched the Imperial Library and found http://www.imperial-library.info/content/arden-sul, an excellent anolysis by Lady Nerevar that supports the idea.

What did Lorkhan do? Unite the disparate et'Adaic tribes under the banner of the Mundus. Under that anology, the similarties become evident


No. But he merely recognized, or was likely the first to recognize, how one transcends the whole deal. In mortality, and eventually in transcendence, are chaos and order united in a sense. Think of how even Daedric realms, in the void, must use Sigil Stones to capture magicka (a product of Aetheria) to exist.

And mantling is not exclusive to Talos. Mantling is a case of mythopoeia, or mortals' beliefs tangibley affecting the physical and metaphysical realities around them. You walk like them until no one can tell the difference in the collective consciousness. This is certainly the case with Sheogorath, as with others.

Oh, that makes way too much sense.
Thanks.

Actually, mantling IS exclusive to Talos/Lorkhan. It is a form of mythopoeia, yes, but not all mythopoeia functions in the same way. Mantling, because of its particular echo of Lorkhan/Akatosh, is a method of reaching divinity that can also be much more: a Walking Way, or method of transcending beyond Aurbis. The case of the new Mad God is anologous to mantling, but it can never actually be more than just making a powerful spirit more powerful.

So: mantling is a form of divinity-inducing mythopoeia, but not all divinity-inducing mythopoeia is mantling.

Mantling isn't limited to Talos and Shor, the CoC was able to do it with Sheogorath. Tiber just happened to imitate the Shor/Akatosh thing really well. With the CoC, Sheogorath intentionally made him become just like him, so when Sheo is gone, Sheo will still be there.

Brian S knows what he is talking about.

What is Sheogorath but the Sithis-shaped hole of the world? Sheogorath practically IS Lorkhan. Look at Arden-Sul and how he mantled Lorkhan to become Sheogorath. The CoC mantled Sheogorath, which is, in turn, mantling Lorkhan.

If you can mantle anyone, wouldn't the Temple faction Pilgrimage from Morrowind cause everyone to mantle Vivec?

No, and saying so ignores the entire process of it for hand waving ignorance.

I wasn't saying so, I was asking. Asking to understand why I'm wrong, not to be told I'm wrong.

You really need to follow in their foot steps, repeat mythical events and significances, become the role of the person you mimic to the point where the two of you cannot be told apart. Talos is nothing but a step in for Shezarr. The CoC is nothing but Sheogorath replacing Sheogorath. Those two mimicked mythical events and events to the point that they couldn't be told apart from the people they were mimicking.

Read up on Tiber Septim, along with what happened with Akatosh and Shor. Read up on Lady Nerevar's explanation of what happened in SI (it's buried around here, but highly comprehensive and drives home a really, really good point) to gain understanding what it means to mantle.

A pilgrim doing the pilgrimages is not mantling.

what I hear is semantics yawn semantics yawn.

"The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora." - Nu-Hatta

Walk like them. Not him/her/it

You are on to something, though. That is the Enantiomorph, our prime example (mover?) of mantling. But the two are theoretically seperate. Altering Mundic perception to change outer-Mundic reality (even to the point of apotheosis) is not something exclusive to that myth-echo. Vivec and his accolades knew that process of alteration as the Symbolic Collage. If you think Sheogorath/The Champion is anologous to anything, you've not yet taken it to its ultimate step. Lorkhan/Akatosh are but pale memories of the Godhead.

Right, Lorkhan/Akatosh are just subgradients of the duality that constitutes everything, the interaction of Anu and Padhome. As such I don't see any reason that mantling should be restricted to just that pairing. If you can only mantle them, in fact, it's not a restriction at all in the sense that the pattern of their conflict is echoed throughout all of creation.

While that sounds interesting, it could just be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they.
Anyhow, I'm going to lurk some more.

If Sheogorath is a part or extension of Lorkhan, why is the CoC's "mantling", anomalous at all.
If people can only mantle Lorkhan, and Sheogorath is a part of Lorkhan, his madness, then it still qualifies within the "Only Lorkhan Can Be Mantled" Theory,
especially considering it happens at the very moment where Old Sheo and Jyggy are mixing in transition.

You should also consider this, why would anyone want to be the almost universally detested/made fun of/not respected god Arkay?

Pfft, feminist drivel.
Besides the interplay of interpersonality discussed in the who-lorkhan thread may come into play here; that is beyond the point.

The point I'm making is that mantling is a broad term, not only applied to mantling in the sense of the Enantiomorph.

You're right, I was merely arguing semantics. It is boring, but it was a point I was corrected on earlier by someone whose expertise I trust. If you look back a few threads, you'll see me asking the exact same question: "Didn't the CoC mantle Sheogorath?" If most here expect "mantling" to be a catch-all term, then I will happily adopt it as such.

Perhaps by making that semantic argument I diminished the power of mythopoeia -- I did not intend to. I am aware of how powerful the forces of belief are in Aurbis, and that they can cause apotheosis.

I do have a question though: Considering that Sheogorath makes his home in Oblivion, and that he is a Daedroth, it would be safe to assume that he is distinctly Padomaic, correct? Subgradient, sure, but not the nice even mixture of Anu and Padomay that Mundus represents, right? It seems strange to me that a Padomaic realm that is its Prince, like the Madhouse, could truly have the same capacity to allow true transcendence -- not just mere apotheosis -- as Mundus does. That was, after all, Lorkhan's purpose in constructing Mundus. Am I way off the mark here?