Lol you actually think there smart enough to look for one??? They dont even know where to begin other than its in a vault. Not to mention theirs plenty of those vaults and finding the right one is gonna be a scavenger hunt. Theres also enemies in those vaults so along the way there gonna loose there troops looking for one. Even if they manage to find the right vault(vault 34) the radiation will kill them and if the radiation dont kill them the ghouls will. I dont think you realize there not equipped enough to handle such a task.

I'm surprised everyone is actually taking this thread so damn seriously.

The butterfly effect basically renders everything we know about what happens in-game void.
Without the courier, hell any action/reaction couldn't happen. For all we know the bloody aliens could come back and curbstomp everyone

It's not about safely ignoring, it about quantifying the unknown..
As for the Legion, Lanius is their general but make no mistake, he reports to Caesar.

Umm no, a howitzer would way to much for a Vertibird(especially if you include the shells). If they had such an effective weapon as combat ready Vertibirds it wouuld have been THE FIRST THING. they used. Before ten ears of war and a military draft. Your logic is not even logic its grasping at straws. Either the NCR doesn't have enough Vertibirds to make a difference in the fight, OR they know the legion can shoot them down. Thats the ONLY excuse for not using them. If it was a year, two years into the war maybe your argument would be valid, but its over a decade. If the NCR had vertibirds that could aid in the war effort they'd have used them.

The only reason to hold back air support is
A: You don't have it
B: The enemy can easily counter it.



Its stated in game the reason was fear of the legion. So either provide evidene to the contray or conceede the point. It wasn't just the robots but the tribes that make up the three families as well.


The radiation from the entrance to the autodoc isn't that bad, sense this is Caeser were talking about they'd probably be permited Rad-X and Rad-away. The elite centurions with anti-material rifes and marksman carbines could handle enough ghouls to reach the autodoc. And they still some how know which vault to search.

I think you're missing Styles point here, the point (I believe) he is trying to make is that the NCR politicians want to put a good spin on the situation. The ncr citizens get to go gamble at the strip, they get power from the dam. Right now its not an unpopular war, if it became known that the enemy was stronger than they had made known, then they could be in trouble with their 'own'...

The very notion of this makes me think that the NCR doesn't see the Legion as the threat that the BoS once was for example?

NCR would win, they might not win the battle at the dam but in the end they're way to well dug in around the Mojave for the Legion to boot them out. The only reason that they might even take the dam in the first place is because they sneak in underneath it and launch a surprise attack but in the end theres no way the Legion would be able to hold the dam against the veteran rangers and heavy troopers. NCR might lose the dam, Mcarran and Helios but odds are they're going to re-take them all except for maybe Helios very quickly.

Legion don't use chems, ever. They also don't know the layout of Vault 34, (I've been in there dozens of time WITH chems and still get lost) it would be an endless death pit for a tribe as poorly equipped as the Legion.

Veribirds cost alot to maintain and fuel. NCR does not want to spend the money to do so.

They haveVeribirds. You can say they only have one but that is stupid. Legion don't have the means to shoot down anything.

Howitzers can be taken apart.

Put it this way. NCR was this to be a low scale war. They don't want to send in thousands of troops, vertibirds and Howitzers. They want to just contain the Legion.



It is what I am trying to say. Right now the war is low key. Things could be better but the Legion seems contained, which is NCR's plan. They want to deal the the Legion with as little force as possible. The moment they start calling in the Vertibirds, Howitzers and thousands of more troops. NCR leadership as to admit that things are going bad in Mojave.

They don't want to commit to an all out war with the Legion. They already won a battle against them. They are going to milk that victory and show it off to the people of NCR for as long as they can. They want a cheap low key war.

Well I would say without the Courier intervention the Legion would take the dam based in the fact the NCR quests are to defuse Legion plans they had set in motion as the Legion quests are not to help then against the NCR, the Boomers are a non-issue as without the Courier they would just keep isolated and would neither assist or hinder and the Brotherhood of Steel would still be locked in Hidden Valley.

Also I would say Kimball would die since he does not visit because of the Courier and if you do not intervene in the quest, the Legion gets him and the Legion side of the quest is pretty much how they attempt it in the first place (sniper and bombing).

The question is afterwards, loosing the damn and having the Legion right at your doorstep would be one hell of a wake up call for NCR as you can point out to Lanius that they would be in a war of attrition with the NCR after the dam, its not a "all or nothing" except for Mr. House and a independent Vegas, Benny simply cannot do what the Courier did or he have done so, in fact as long the Lucky 38 had the doors closed he could not set his plan in motion, getting in the Bunker would achieve nothing besides upgrading the Securitrons.

So in the end the Legion would have won the Second Battle of Hoover Dam but then would be stuck on the Mojave with the NCR slowly draining away their strength and when Caesar dies, Lanius would take his place and then the Legion would collapse as he is no Caesar, he lacks the ability to hold it.

This is why your arguments are so stupid, Styles. You are relying on the NCRs strength in LORE while compairing it to the Legions strength in the GAME. If you want to play by lore, then think of this. Thousand or so NCR Troopers vs Thousands of Legionarries running over the Dam, from under it, from all around.

When NCR first got to the Mojave their only real threat was Mr.House. All he had to keep NCR away was a couple securitrons. I don't count that many in the game. NCR would have no trouble fighting them. They would have no troubel dealing with them even when the Legion showed up. Only thing keeping NCR from just taking the strip is their morals. They want to do it through negotiation not force.

Mr.House even know his Robots could not stop the NCR if they tried, that is why he wants to upgrade them and get his army.

And where are they going to GET this money? NCR's not exactly in the most financially feasible position to throw money around willy-nilly, not for a war that, by this hypothetical point we're both pointlessly arguing, is already lost.

One squad with nowhere to go can't do jack [censored] against hundreds of Legionaires in a fortified position. And fly in howitzers? :facepalm:

I'm kinda tired now. Was a nice debate though, mostly.

In the end I still stand by my theory of House using his lasers to vapourise the Fort, intimidating the NCR into leaving and then rebuilding the human civilsation.

And yes styles, those big fancy lasers would mow down the vertibirds too

I still call a case of BS. They would have to search not to mention the journey to all the vaults and to Vault 34 itself. Its also near NCR territory so you dont think NCR wont see them?? I think so. Not to mention why would he send his most loyal commanders there? Because hes desperate? Most likely if the Legionaries are so good they can go in there without a problem...not hardly.

House TELLS you the reason that the NCR didn't attack was BECAUSE of the Legion.

Though I don't like the Legion, they would win. Even if the NCR does have the Rangers, vertibird technology, and a few power armor troops, the Legion has the advantage of pure intimidation. This advantage is the morale-breaker in the NCR.

I just wanna take the time to point out these 2 VERY important quotes from this thread:



I'd say that argument is dead now.



Sorry NCR fans, but this one is done deal.

Oh, and the argument about the auto-doc is fairly stupid and pointless. Caesar is a moot point in the battle for the dam.

I am not saying they can just send one squad against the fort. They can attack other places behind the lines. Why is flying in howitzers stupid? They take them apart and fly them in.

Again you have proven my point. NCR is not that financially stable. They don't want to spend any more money then they have to. They don't want to start spending money on vertibirds and the cost of fuel and ammo for Howitzers. They just want to contain the Legion, which is what they have been doing.

Mr.House is over confident in thinking his Robots would cause hundreds of NCR casualties. Also casualties does not just = deaths. If the Omertas can smuggle weapons into the Strip, NCR can as well.

NCR does not want a costly war. They don't want to fight Mr.House or the people of the Mojave.

If NCR gets pushed to far to the point they have no other option. They will be a real force to deal with, a cornered Bear is you will.

I see his point, I just think his point is all wrong. If the NCR had a capable air force it have been the first thing they send at the legion. When you have an airforce you send that in ahead of the ground force.


We only see one Vertibird and no one in game ever mentions using them to fight. Provide solid in game evidence they have more then a handful of Vertibirds. You can't because it doesn't exist. You assume they got the plans from the Shi, but we can't be sure they ever had them to begin with it wasn't required to complete FO2. I doubt the Shi would have turned over the blueprints anyway they weren't allied with the NCR. Considering there is no Shi empire its likely they were destoryed in FO2 by the Chosen One. This leaves Navarro as the only source of NCR aircraft, which would have had only a handful of Vertibirds many of which the Enclave would have used in there defence and escape.

Which doesn't leave the NCR with very many aircraft, especially after a war with the brotherhood.(where they certainly would have used them). And the legion does have the means to shoot them down, they have anti-material rifles which are perfectly capable of shooting down a vertibird. They could also infiltrate the maintenance crews and install bombs on the aircraft. The things aren't all that tough.



What low scale wars issue a draft and lasts for ten years? Your entire argument for why they'd keep them in reserve is flawed, after ten years and a military draft people would be screaming bloody murder to send them in if it was possible. Sense we never see the Vertibird strikes we can only assume the NCR isn't capable of it. if they only had four or five they'd be to valuable for transporting government officials, to valuable for supply runs ot the front where they become rountine targets

If the legion couldn't counter vertibirds then using them would be a certainty. If you have a weapon the enemy can't counter you use it first and hope to beat them before sending in ground forces. The Dam is to valuable to hold back that much of a tacticall advantage if it exists .


Execpt that never happens, if they could send in Vertibirds to attack you, Oliver would make that threat when you confront him working for another faction but he doesn't.
There isn't a mention about the NCR returning to the Mojave in the ending slides if they failed to keep the dam.


Ten years and a military draft is very costly, way more expensive then sending in your air force. You keep saying the hold these things in reserve because its costly but that makes absolutely no sense after a decade. And if they had them in reserve someone somewhere in the mojave would be &*&)*@$ that the NCR doesn't send them in.

So, House, the guy whom, throughout the game, possesses a slight ability to calculate future events, from the Courier's potential use as an ally, Caesar's willingness to give up the Platinum Chip should Benny run for the Fort, and even predicted when WWIII would start (with a one day margin of error)...is overconfident in believing he can kill hundreds of NCR soldiers? :rolleyes:

Also, Omertas are not under the same restrictions as NCR. NCR military personnel are prohibited from bearing arms within the Strip; Omertas aren't. Second, the Omertas have a whole casino, which the Securitrons cannot go inside of, to store the weapons. NCR have a dilapidated building as a makeshift embassy and barracks. NCR's not exactly in a position to be smuggling in a whole hell of a lot.

So when I point out that Mr.House only has a dozen Robots I am told that they would be able to cause hundreds of NCR casualties.

Vertibirds = alot of money. NCR does not want to spend alot of money. They don't need to send them in against the Legion in their mind because they have them contained.

It is a low scale war. Full scale would be destroying the Legion at the dam and then invading Arizona. They don't want to because they don't have the money for it and the war would become very unpopular.

Right now there are wars going on that arn't really "wars" in the eyes of the governments. Again I can't use real world example agianst forum rules but man if I could..

Here we go again, using the ingame numbers of one faction to argue against its strength using the story-based numbers of another.

I am told by others its stupid of me to assume NCR has more then one Vertibird and since I can only see one there must only be one. Yet I am to believe a couple robots can keep the NCR at bay and cause hundreds of casualties.

Legion would be a strong favorite to win but it depends on what House does. All he needs to do is get one person and have them sneak into the bunker and activate the securitrons (Assuming that House Kills Benny). Once the securitrons are activated and the Chip Program download into their memory banks it's bye bye Legion.

There's an idea: Mr. House could probably pay one of the Legion guys to take care of this. He's got the money, and they can't all be inscrutable.