Or use jedi mind tricks.... That's about as realistic.

Where did you make up the number a dozen? Did you do a head count? why is your head count of a dozen correct but my headcount of one Veritbirds wrong? We see multipe Securitrons and know the Lucky 38 has that big basemant. We only ever see a single Vertibird.


COURIER: Wasn't the NCR's army big enough to defeat your Securitrons and the Three Families?

HOUSE: Indeed it was - and still is. But not without taking significant casualties. Would Kimball and Oliver have traded the lives of hundreds of soldiers for absolute control of Hoover Dam? Oh yes. They weren't afraid of me, they were afraid of Caesar - that attacking me would leave them vulnerable to a Legion offensive. And so they negotiated. Not out of the kindness of their hearts, as they try to make it seem. Because the calculus of power left no other choice.

Provide evidence that House's is mistaken, from this statement we can conclude he has more Securitrons available to him {before the bunker} then is visible on the strip. OR fine if House only has your head count of Securitrons (before the bunker). Then the NCR only has my head count of Vertibirds which is one.

FACT: There is in game evidence that House has enough Securitrons on hand that with the Three Famlies he could cause major casualties to the NCR.
There is no evidence to support the NCR has anything more Vertibirds then Bear Force One, the fact they don't use them is evidence they don't have them. One House has his army online he doesn't hestitate to use them.

The NCR wouldn't hesitate either, if they had more Vertibirds and they were combat ready. Someone would mention them, someone would complain the NCR isn't using them.


Ten years of war, a military draft and hundreds of lives = more money. Its been to long and to bloody for that argument to work. The Legion has reached cottonwood cove, destroys Searchlight and Nipton. They don't have them contained. The general morale of the NCR in the area is there losing the war. If you have an airforce and the enemy does not have the means to counter them. You send the air force in, it doesn't matter that its expensive it'll end the war quickly. Hooverdam provides the NCR with electricity and water, its to valuable to hold back Vertibirds if they have any to spare.

You are saying Mr. House could bribe a Legionnaire?
No, Caesar explains very well why he did not send anyone inside ... they are loyal because he is a god to him, they would never betray Caesar and also why would Mr. House risk it? chances are they would get in, destroy the bunker ... only reason Caesar did not send anyone was because he would have to execute then after.

Hey, don't count House out of that either. House is over 200 years old, maybe he's figured out the secret to mind control.

More likely he'd fake his death and wait for the opportune moment to make a move again, set off a bomb on top to the Lucky 38 to make Caeser think he committed suicide. Then wait until things settle down before trying to unlock his army again.

It is a classic example of the Leadership not listning to their generals. The people at the front are telling their leaders "look things arn't contained" and their leaders look at the problem and say "well they are still on their side of the River and we control the dam."

NCR can handle the cost of troop deaths and drafting people. A couple hundred even a thousand over ten year, the NCR can deal with that.

Going from a low level war to an all out war is something the leadership does not want to do. They don't even send in the Rangers and Heavy Armoured troops till things finally look like the Legion will finally attack the dam and even then we learn there are far more "chasing after Ghosts in Baja." By then it was to late for NCR to send in Vertibirds and Artillery.

It is like the Vietnam War. America did not want to send in alot of people and money at first. Then it got out of control and in the end they were never able to use full force. When they did it started to work. Nixon bombing the hell out of the north which they did not do for the longest time finally brought the commies to the peace table.

Iraq another great one. America and allies wanted to fight it with as little troops as they could. Things went to hell because they did not have enough people to make it secure, stretched way to thin. Bush finally said "screw it you guys hate me as it is I sending in another 40,000 troops in." People thought it would be a blood bath but in the end it worked!

NCR leadership is not at the point were they feel they need to go all out against the Legion. They already won a major battle and in their mind they have them contained. Going all out would push NCR over the edge money wise. They can budget for drafties and a couple hundred deaths a year but not the cost of all out war against the Legion.

With the Courier's Help the Legion takes advantage of NCR's inability to act to the threat. Caesar strikes before NCR is willing to throw their full weight around. Without the Courier the Legion will wait and delay. They will keep pissing off NCR till finally they may snap and go all out on the Legion. You can only can poke a bear for so long before it takes your head off.

You really haven't been paying attention at all, Styles, have you?

And LOL @ the notion of the NCR being able to basically steamroll the Legion whenever they "feel like it".

We're given plenty of reason to think that House has more Securitrons stashed around than what we physically see, from the 38's basemant to the fact that an infinite number of Yes-Men can spawn. And if you want some ingame proof supported by game mechanics, then how about this: some respawn when killed.

Same cannot be said about the Vertibird. We only see them in possession of one, used to transport the president. We get no other mention of further use in the NCR, of any possible production or training, or anything. Therefore, it's safe to assume that, no, the NCR really doesn't have the appropriate numbers to use in the war. At all. Not for transport, not for air support, nothing.

I have but It seems like most of you don't even understand NCR at all. You do know they are the largest miltary power in the Wasteland right? Have been around since Fallout (just shady sands back then). They don't go in full force they take their time. They are a democratic people and can be slow to act.

All those saying I am crazy don't seem to be able to think like a bureaucrat or politician or even have a basic undersanding of history. Still I am not going to keep on trying to convince people although some are through PM.



They can. If they were forced to. They don't have the will to do it. The people will only stay on your side for so long. The people's willingness to fight a war can't be over used. America did that and now most of the country has lost is will to fight.

WW2 America was unwilling to fight but when they were provoked enought they did and turned the war around. At a time when America was going through the Great Depression and were beyond screwed money wise.

I'm not, or rather, I'll TRY not getting pulled into this, but Styles, I don't think your crazy, I just think you're underestimating the NCR's ineptitude at the moment. Perhaps if Kimball is out of office, that would change, but and NCR victory would only keep Kimball and his his trained chimp Oliver in positions of strength. Everytime I play, I do it through speech to not fight him, and trust me, it is VERY hard for me to stand an overly confident dike who thinks he's a great leader, when his only real talent is being friends with the right people.

Using weak examples from real life wars isn't gonna strengthen your argument any further.

Well that is true Styles, its a bit like Vietnam for the NCR that is a conflict far away and its not affecting the NCR itself directly.

The NCR could win if they needed but that would requires steps that would not go well within the NCR, like mobilization and going into a war economy and the Legion is still a enemy far away ... in fact New Vegas is not even part of the NCR and as much Hoover Dam is nice and useful its not as if the NCR even depends on it to survive.

When people say the NCR could win is a fully mobilized NCR were you would have groups like the Followers of the Apocalypse and the Gun Runners providing assistance but that is unlikely unless it was a direct threat to them as well, when the choices is supporting the NCR or end up in a cross ... what do you think they would pick?
.

Think if this...NCR=America. And when america gets angry it will rip you apart the same with what NCR is capable of doing.

Right, because that went REALLY well for America that last time back in 2077. :whistling:

Oh please dont give me that BS. They went down because of many reasons. Lets see oil crisis got to dependent on oil and that ended well. When you use Nuclear war to end something it aint gonna end pretty. Cant blame America whole heartily on this it was the contribution of all kinds of matters.

Considering America wanted to be dikes and sabatoge China's oil rig where they claimed the last untapped source of oil on earth, you can blame them.

You do realize that General Oliver, not Chief Hanlon, is the commanding officer for the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, right?

And you do realize that every single argument you've made in this thread is pure speculation without a shred of evidence to back it up? I mean, a page ago you were saying the NCR would win because of vertibirds. There's one in the entire game and there's no proof that the Shi are part of the NCR.... Now you're assuming they draft people and saying "no guys, they have more people than the Legion. Trust me, I'm a scientist." Yeah, so is Fantastic according to the NCR.... :facepalm:

No you cant its called demand and America demanded oil and they became engulfed in the oil and it brang down the whole world.

When the NCR is pissed, it gets things done. Like I said earlier the NCR may lose the second battle at the dam, and honestly probably would without the courier, but theres no way in hell the Legion would be able to hold it. Once Oliver and his half assed strategy fall apart then people like Moore and Hanlon are going to be put in charge and there is just no way that that anybody in the Legion, based on lore or gameplay, is going to be able to stand up to the combined strength of the ranger vets and heavy armored troopers. The war would go on for awhile longer but the outcome will still be the same albeit with way more casualties, NCR wins.

You're failure is your assurity in your tech. Look at the NCR, even with their best troops, they still are uncomfortable fighting the Legion. The NCR is inexplicably bound to lose if the Legion defeats the NCR, unless some miracle happens post second battle. Anyone who thinks high end tech counts for jack, REALLY should look into that little skirmish at Helios One.

Does not matter who is in Charge of Mojave Force in the end its up to Kimball and his people safe behind their desks back in NCR (Shady Sands) that make the call. It all comes down to pencil pushers and budget makers not the people on the ground getting shot.

So just because we see one Vertibird that NCR has they only have one? Wow love that logic there guy. A power like NCR would not try to get more than one? They defeated the Enclave that had them and plans to make them.

I have seen people make up crap like "the legion will send people into Vault 34 to get the part for the auto doc." Sure they will.

This is all hypothetical debate anyways. What would happen if there is no courier? I am saying nothing will happen. The Factions will keep doing what they are doing till one day NCR gets pushed to far and then they will really show their full force. I am not underestimating the Legion. You guyes are underestimating the NCR. They are slow to act but when they do the Legion would not be able to stand against them for long.

The only ones that are really uncertain about fighting the Legion are the younger troopers who are out there fighting with as little as two weeks training, you talk to any one of the rangers out there or the vets from the Baja and none of them can wait to get their hands on the Legion.

yes and may i recall BOS were outnumbered 15:1 and they almost destroyed the NCR.

How do we know the Enclave didn't detonate and destroy their vertibirds to keep them from NCR hands? The one Kimball has might have been lucky enough to not been detonated or anything.

Edit at Ace: And yet they ended up going into hiding from the NCR. I can predict that to be the NCR's fate should the Legion win.

History Books are your friend. At least they want to be, go a head one day and study one :thumbsup:

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them."