Something else I forgot about, without the courier intervening then we can almost be sure that Kimball would be killed at the dam, and like House said if he is killed then he'll go down as a martyr and all of the NCR will get behind the war with the legion and do whatever they have to to defeat them.

I would to if i was outnumbered that much and they were after to destroy me but NCR wont do that. See that's only part of NCR's army in Nevada theirs no way they will hide just because of that lost let alone go back to California and not try to take back The Dam.

You can't think like a politician, The NCR gains nothing from holding back a weapon the legion can't counter but they lose a fortune in the ground forces. How many "small scale" wars started with the air force in hopes of avoiding puting troops on the ground? If you have an air force and the enemy doesn't you START the air force. Its politically and militarily the smart thing to do. Generals and Political leaders have dreamed of ending wars without putting troops on the ground just using the air force. Its worked maybe once or twice in history but they still attempted it.


And in what history book did you read about the war where they held the air force in reserve in favor of a ground war? When has an air force ever been held in reserve in favor of the ground forces? it hasn't if you have air superority you use it. Ten years of fighting, a military draft. The NCR is WAY past the point where they could fool people into thinking its just a minor deal with the legion.

Why hold back a powerful and potent weapon and throw away hundreds of lives? the best explanation is they don't exist.



No the logic is, there is NO REFERENCE to the existence of other Vertibirds and they didn't defeat the Enclave the chosen one did, the NCR took out a refueling base. The Enclave could have destoryed most of the Vertibirds before the NCR could take them. The veterans are referenced as chasing ghosts in Baja, but there aren't any references to Vertibirds except the presidents.

Where did the NCR get the plans to make Vertibirds? That doesn't happen in Fallout 2. The plans go to the Shi, the Hubologists or the BoS. The BoS wouldn't give them up, the Hubologists don't survive and neither do the Shi. The good ending for the Shi in FO2 has them building an empire, as that didn't happen the ones where they die out must have occured.

You have no evidence they possess the plans or even the necessary resources to produce them, let alone Vertibirds in any signficant number.

Even if the Shi did not get their hands on the Vertibird Blue Prints. Even if the BoS didn't, even if NCR failed to capture the plans at Navarro or were only able to get the one Vertibird. Would not think NCR would be all over it like flies on [censored] to study it and one day make more? That is what I would do. If they only had the one how did they train someone to fly it? Someone was able to get get into and say "jump in Mr.President I'll fly you to the Dam?" Learning to fly it would be a waste of time if you did not have more then one. If they only had one they were very lucky not to crash the damn thing learning to fly it.

Also what about capture Enclave scientists. I doubt NCR killed every Enclave they came across or that everyone took their own lives. They would do what the Nazies did and try to get them to work for them. Slim chance but there is a chance.. NCR has had many chances to get Vertibird tech. There is always the Chance they stumbled on the tech on their own.

Edit: Air Force will cost way to much money. They don't see the need to use such costly tech from the start. Why do it when you have grunts to throw at the Legion. Sad to say most military budget makers would rather lose a few men then multi-million dollar equipment. Cold but true. Can't win a war with air power alone. Legion don't have air power so their is no need to counter it. NCR has the Legion contained at the Dam at least in the minds of the pencil pushers. They don't even send in their best troops till things finally look like the Legion is going to make a move for the Dam and by then it was to late to move in their heavy weapons and vertibirds.

Hmmm. For me its either Mr. House or Legion. The Legion needs you to make sure some things happen to ease their way into battle, but Mr. House needs his securitrons upgraded to pose a threat. I'm assuming that with Benny so close Mr. House could easily throw 1,000 or so caps someone's way and get them to retrieve the platinum chip. Mr. House has been spending larges sum's of caps to get the chip and if it had found its way into the Strip I'm sure he would be able to find someone to get it from Benny. Getting someone to activate his army though may be the problem. I'm sure he could get someone to go there, but I doubt it would turn out so well.

I'm going to have to side with Mr. House though. With his securitrons upgraded there is no way anyone would be able to take over New Vegas (Legion would be able to claim the rest of the Mojave however).

More baseless speculation. FACTS, Styles, we want cold hard facts.

I can pull nonsense out of my rectum as well, but that doesn't make me anymore right.

Seriously Styles, this baseless speculation has become rather dull by now.

EDIT- Hah, even Xetirox said "baseless speculation". That's funny.

brotherhood of steel all the way [censored]s >:D

The Shi are not allies of the NCR and there dead they died out in Fallout 2. They have two endings where they die and one where they build the basis of an empire. None of those endings put the plans in the NCR's hands. *and as the Shi aren't mentioned as having an emprie we can assume they died out* The Chosen One takes the last copy of the blue prints from Navarro. (assuming he took the plans at all). Which could leave nothing for the NCR to find. The Vertibird is also a highly advanced piece of technical equipment, development wasn't even finished until after the Great War. It take forty years or more until the NCR could but the necessary equipment together to start making them.

The NCR could have a fleet of Vertibirds in the future but currently at in 2281 when the game takes place, there is no fleet. Someone would have mentioned it if it existed. But there is no reference, there is no mention which means we can only conclude the NCR doesn't have enough Vertibirds to make a difference in the Mojave. Especially given how vunerable they are on the ground to sabotage.

Yah none that your providing Syles is providing plenty of Facts your just to blind not to see it.

I know my post are speculation and opinion. This whole topic is speculation and opinion. Even those that side for the Legion. Fact is none of us now what would happen without the courier.

Exactly. Your just assuming what would happen but truly no one knows what could happen. You may say that Legion would win but thats just a matter opinion.

[Saracasm/] I love how the House, Benny, BoS, and Talon Company ideas are ignored on this thread [\Sarcasm]

Really, how come no one wants to argue about how House would kick the Legion and NCR out of the Strip so hard they wouldn't be able to sit right for a week?

Um because that wouldnt happen. Mr.house isnt stupid. It would be suicide to send his Securitrons that arnt upgraded to go and try to kill both Legion and NCR. He doesn't have enough nor does he have the time to waste such valuable resources on them.

That and he loses control of them after they get to far away from the Lucky 38 do they not?

Styles bases his speculation the NCR would win on a fleet of Veritbirds but there's no real evidence the NCR has that fleet of Vertibirds. If he can claim the NCR has vertibirds but just doesn't use them, then I can claim the legion has anti-aircraft missiles but just doesn't use them.


Because more then anyone House needs an agent to finish the job. He might fake his death and come back in a decade, but he wouldn't win in the upcoming battle.

Lemme put it this way...

If you finish reading Romeo and Juliet, what do you do? You follow what's indicated in the story: that Romeo and Juliet are dead. You don't start with baseless speculation about how "the poison Romeo drank wasn't strong enough and he somehow lived and went on to create the Montague Space Flight Program." No, the book said NOTHING to imply that will happen. NOTHING.


Now as far as the game goes, it HEAVILY (HEAVILY!!!!) implies that the Legion has their **** together, acknowledges and works around their weaknesses, divides and conquers, and will be ready to do battle with or without the Courier whereas the NCR.....does none of that. You see? It's true it is technically all speculation, but this is merely because there's no true ending (yet) and the Mojave without the Courier is a work of fiction. However, as I said, you work with the hints and implications given to you, however subtle they may be. And those implications say the Legion would win.

Other than that he puts up valid arguments.

Legion would take the dam, but taking the dam isn't the end of it. Ultimately the various factions within the city's walls will win.

Assume Legion takes the dam, and all sides take heavy losses. The Legion must now hold the dam (with depleted forces) and lay siege to the city of Vegas itself. Vegas is walled off and heavily fortified. The Legion could throw wave after wave of troops at those walls and the bodies would just pile up. The Legion could presumably turn off power to Vegas, but turning off the power doesn't turn off their guns. The city has plenty of food and drink, the best weapon makers and weapon suppliers in the Mojave, sewer systems with tunnels to the outside allowing for discrete resupply. Individual factions inside Vegas (House, Benny, Gun Runners, all the rest) would then unite against a common enemy. These are, after all, business people who understand they must finally unite against a common enemy. Meanwhile the Legion must also defend from guerilla attacks by the remaining NCR while attempting to hold the dam and simultaneously lay siege to Vegas. The various factions in the Mojave have exactly one thing in common: fear and hatred of the Legion. When the Legion takes the dam, all the other factions are finally compelled to unite against their common enemy who is now in a weaker position.

Anyway, it's a fun thought experiment. I've enjoyed reading everybody's posts on this one.

No, remember what Benny said as how the Boot Riders ended up being the Chairman ... House send one Securitron and they destroyed it in under a minute, the next day he sent 20 and they listened. It seems none of the 3 families were Vegas based (White Glove were Cannibals and Omertas lured travelers to either murder then or enslave them as the Boot Riders were nomads).

There might be signal loss but they are quite capable of working on their own, Victor did since he was not being directly instructed by House at that point.

I would say either Legion or the N.C.R but the N.C.R had alot of work to be done for them helping with getting them weapons and what not. So saying that I would think that the Legion would win as they're already equipt.

The Legion could go into the sewers to and they could get into Freeside and the Strip. Most New Vegas citizens wouldn't stand a chance against the Legion or NCR. They aren't trained like either of them and would end up defeated, they may put up a good fight but they'll eventually fail.

And I and several others have based our speculation on the facts presented in-game. You're arguing in favor NCR because they possess enough vertibirds, which is not confirmed, that the war is being fought by pencil-pushers, which is not confirmed, that they are actively choosing not to fight a full-scale war, which is not confirmed. And when we bring up something cold and hard, such as the viability of the Securitrons to deter outside threats, you ignore it because it doesn't fit your pretty visions.


Dude...food doesn't appear in thin air. It's grown in the farms outside the city and imported in. If the Legion can't breach the walls, then they only need to lay siege to it until the people within starve to death. And there's nothing to prevent them from penetrating the walls. The majority of the population within are nothing more than squatters, muggers, and tourists. About the only credible threats are House's Securitrons and two of the Three Families, and the Legion can defeat all of them out of pure attrition if it comes down to it.

Also, this doesn't happen should you side with the Legion. When the dam is attacked, then unless the Courier intervened, the Omertas begin a massacre on the Strip and the Kings riot against the NCR. And in the Legion ending, they successfully enter the Strip, driving out the rest of the NCR and taking over.

Oh ,yes it is ... pretty much all of the NCR and Ranger commanders say as much, I think Colonel Hsu even says if it was up to him he would cross the river and go after the Legion and General Oliver is not described kindly, Chief Hanlon even says whatever he proposes Oliver argues for the opposite and Boone says Hsu would be a General by now if Oliver did not intervened.

Its not even you having to read between the lines, its being flat out said by several characters in the game.

This is actually heavily inferred in the game. Chief Hanlon mentions power armor units being kept back in California chasing down minor raider threats because of brahmin baron influence and the Ranger veterans are in Baja rather than on the front-lines. If you contrast it with the endgame conversation with Lanius where he mentions how too many of the Legion's resources have already gone into the war effort it's pretty clear the NCR isn't deploying it's full strength whereas the Legion is concentrating everything it can spare and then some.