Have any of you ever seen a map of the US? The Legion controls all (or most) of Utah, Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico, while the NCR controls California and most of Nevada. Clearly, CL has more territory captured in a shorter amount of time, showing just how efficient they are. Since Caesar's Legion also takes every able-bodied man and converts them into soldiers, I'd say the Legion actually has a greater military force, consisting of soldiers that are far more disciplined and ready to give their life for their cause. Not to mention the many slaves that probably work mines, farms, quarries, etc. So, they have their food problems and need for natural resources sorted out as well. I'd say it is pretty clear that the Legion would win the entire Mojave Region, not just the Dam.

As for how: a larger military force (plus an assault from within the Dam itself, and southwards from Cottonwood Cove and Nelson) takes the Dam, Camp Golf falls even with the Misfits shaped up, Camp McCarran is weakened by the Fiends and the remaining few are probably easily conquered by the Legion, Vegas falls with the aid of the Omertas, and other small locations are conquered with the help of the Khans (which everyone seemed to have forgotten in this thread).

And Siberia is pretty damn big, too bad not many people live there right?

California population is currently roughly about 36 million, the states you mention combined are about 16 million. Heck even California can give Siberia a run since Siberia only have 40 million people ... in fact California ranks BOTH First Place in terms of Population and Population Density in terms of US states, its "only" the 3rd Largest US state in terms of Area (Alaska and Texas are bigger).

Besides the NCR does not cover the whole of California and the Legion UNLIKELY covers all the states you mention and we know the NCR population was at 700,000 citizens in the 2241 census, that was before Vault City and Redding joined and I would guess A LOT of smaller towns also joined the NCR, I suspect in 2276 the NCR is already closing to a population of 2 million considering their expansion and the fact they recovered to almost Pre-War technological levels.

Legion? they absorbed 86 tribes but how many did the NCR did when it pushed North ? in fact what the Legion does is usually kill most of the men and enslave the rest, even if the Legion had a larger population it skill gets cut down because UNLIKE the NCR were there is no gender discrimination, women CANNOT serve in the Legion so its already cutting about HALF of its potential fighting force, NCR have no such issue so even in the UNLIKELY case it had half of the Legion total population, they would even out.

I dislike the Legion but it's painfully obvious they would win. The NCR's communications are in shambles, poorly trained soldiers, and they aren't receving the support they need. The only upside I can think of for the NCR is their Ranger Veterans are tough as Adamantium nails.

The Legion however has their act together, they're tactically sound. The Legion is at the top of their game whilst everyone else is utterly disorganized.

With out a doubt as a fanatical Legion hater i still have to say that if we are only talking about the dam sure thing Caesar will win, but the victory will be a phyrric one. Melee troops which is the legion will perform what amounts to a first World War bayonet charge, thier fanatisicm will carry them "over the top" across "no man's land" and into the opposing trenches. They will suffer horrific casualties but will gain ground by over whelming numbers and a fearless charge but attrition will be the equalizer. Caesar will fight the battle of the dam like Stalin did in Stalingrad, choosing to send his troops across into whithering fire with the idea that for every bullet the NCR fires regardless of whether it hits one of his soldiers or not is one less bullet the NCR has, eventually they will run out and your melee trained soldiers will then have the advantage. Using a reverse seige tactic the Legion will attempt to drive the NCR off the dam and will eventually as bullets run out. The legion will displace the defenders but only after suffering horrific casualties as a man even poorly trained with a gun has an advantage over an exposed charging enemy due to pure mechanics, with a gun i can attack you more times as you approach than you can attack me. What this means is that eventually the legion will displace the defenders but only at the cost of signifigant casualties.

One must understand that in order to develop the loyalty (it is not realy loyalty more like fear) that the legion relies upon requires a signifigant time investment in that soldier. They are literally trained from birth to fear nothing but thier commanders, but that while a strength, is also a weakness as those same troops can not be replaced faster than the NCR can replace thier losses. A lifetime of indoctrination and training no matter how good that training is, will fail as attrition will doom the legion. The NCR can make a replacement in a shorter time because all that is really required is to train the soldier to use the weapon. I trained my 9 year old neice to field strip and clean my AKs in a few hours on a Saturday, took her out to the range that afternoon, handed her my Bursa .380 and had her hitting center mass in a few hours. To teach a legion soldier no fear except of Caesar, that is thier primary motivator, takes a lifetime to instill, with out that fear of Caesar a legion soldier will bayonet charge a heavily defended position why again?

So while i am a suporter of anyone but the legion preffering to shoot the legion scum on site (as a public service) i have to recognize that in the short term Hoover will be a victory for the legion and also the harbringer of thier destruction. The casualties the legion will suffer can not be replaced in a shorter time frame than the NCR so they will pillage and burn thier way across the Mohave and like the NCR witout the support of the locals, who from everything i have heard them say, will not support the legion, will burn out just like the NCR. So win or loose at the dam the legion is over anyway it is just winning at the dam will cost alot more people thier lives, but in the end the outcome will be the same a phyrric victory for the legion followed by a slow and agonizing death for the legion and anyone they touch.

The legion is an orginization built on fear and hate and like the third reich will collapse eventually because you can not build anything on fear or hate, they are by thier nature destroyers, love and courage are the foundation of the future and neither of those ideas has a place in the legion. Yes all legionaires are cowards because Caesar can only do what he does if people follow, and people follow Caesar because they are afraid of him and by thier acceptance guilty of the evil the legion brings. The legion like the third reich armies is not one built upon individual innitiative, legionaires only do what they are told, there is no room for free thought in the legion, where as a NCR trooper will think for themselves. It is that weakness of legion command structure, that blind obedience that lead to thier demise in the first battle, just following thier orders unquestionably to thier deaths. I can not wish anything more on a legion soldier than that well maybe add painful to death, but just plain dead works too.

Asai

What a cool story, Asai ^^ You should publish a book about it. For real.



How cute. NCR fans and their bias is certainly something to admire.




Sure, but do you know what they key here is? It's actually based on in-game evidence while all the NCR arguments are based on pure nonsense.

The Lone Wanderer would win

The Legendary Deathclaw says "To hell with this!!"

Goes and pays a visit to the Legenday Cazadore and they decide it time for the humans to die.

After splitting up the Mojave evenly they co-rule in peace for twenty thousand years.

End of story.

Benny would've been killed at the Fort while trying to activate the securatrons or alternatively in Vegas while returning to Mr House.

White glove society, omerta thugs and chairmen would've sold out to House as they did before to keep their respective casinos open.

Legion along with the Great khans would've taken over most of the territory including Hoover dam while the NCR battled crop failures, political infighting and a lack of cohesive leadership. Many would have been tortured by the Legion as they extended their reach west and the rest frightened away. The brotherhood would have gained in number and taken over Helios One, further reducing NCR's control over the region.

House would have tried to get the securatrons operating at the Fort but after Benny and the courier he wouldn't have trusted any other human and probably would have delayed it until he could extend his remote control. Legion in the meantime would've stolen the chip off Benny and used one of their own people to destroy the securatrons. House in his anger would've cooperated with the Omerta thugs or chairmen and maybe converted them into robots and sent them out instead, a whole new breed of robots. But this would take too long and in the meantime the Legion would've taken over New Vegas with the help of the Khans and the greatly weakened NCR troops.

With the Legion in charge of new vegas, the omertas, white glove society and chairmen would've fled back into the wastes to avoid being butchered, House would've either remained at an uneasy stalemate with them or have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers, and the Khans would take over where the three families left off, leading similar lifestyles but never forgetting their savage pasts.

I'd have to say the Legion. I'd rather them get stomped, but I have to say they're most likely to win. House/Benny is a stalemate, House will destroy anyone who tries to enter the lucky 38, and Benny can't kill House.

NCR has a number of issues, they're demoralized, w/o the courier the monorail will be destroyed, Kimball will be slain, reinforcements will be cut off from Hoover dam (along with Hoover dam force's line of retreat). It looks to me that the Legion will win a crushing victory under Legate Lanius, which will give them the Hoover dam, and the handful of securitrons running the mark 1 OS wouldn't cause serious problems for the Legion.

I'll go on to say that the BoS chapter will get wiped out by the legion, as would the powder gangers (no loss), and the fiends (again, no loss).

The Legion, on the other hand, will suffer from the loss of Caesar himself, but Caesar is not a military leader (any more), he is a political leader. Lanius is the general, and will assume the mantle of Caesar as well - which bodes ill for everyone in the area.

Honestly though, even if the NCR managed to win, which I don't see, it wouldn't be good. The NCR is clearly ineptly lead, and I don't believe that their governance will be good for the people of New Vegas. I don't believe they have the capacity to govern New Vegas even if they cared to do so, which it doesn't seem they do - other than it's proximity to the Hoover Dam. That's why it's kind of painful for me to see the game through to finish. There's NO option that I can run through & think "this is going to improve the life of the people and their children." I end up taking over New Vegas myself.

According to the poll, half the voters think the legion will win the battle at the dam. That's how I voted, too.

Here's a question for you all -- what happens next? After the battle comes the war. Who wins?

I never finished my Legion game (just couldn't stomach it) -- what do the slides say about a Legion victory?

Can the NCR function without power from the dam?

I voted for NCR.

IMHO, the Legion can't win. They've got this far by taking out small tribes of individuals. They lost the first Battle of Hoover Dam because all their tough talk doesn't cut it when facing armored gun-toting *soldiers*, not isolated clans, who have something real to protect. I don't know why they'd be expected to win a second battle. The NCR is even better informed of their tactics and equipment now. And they've had plenty of time to prepare. The longer Caesar puts off his second attempt at taking the Dam, the harder it's gonna be. I'd put it off too, if I were him. He clearly is aware he cannot defeat the NCR. The NCR are not going to just roll over. And the NCR vastly out-numbers the entire Legion. It's the entire state of Cali plus everyone in the Mohave who doesn't want to be a slave or be crucified. And there doesn't appear to be any shortage of weaponry in the Mohave.

Caesar painted himself into a corner. His own men will crucify him if he doesn't give them a glorious victory soon. But it just ain't gonna happen. His army is the giant boulder rolling downhill. Hoover Dam and the NCR is the immovable object. And Caesar is the nut in the middle waiting to get crushed. Ha-ha! [/nelson]

Moe would be very sad if he was left out :sadvaultboy:

O lawd, is dat sum bias? I think it is.

The Legion actually won the dam the first time, but they lost when they decided to pursue the NCR into Boulder City. Graham's mistake.

The NCR has far from learned from their mistakes, and they don't appear to be improving by any stretch of the imagination. Oliver still believes that the best way to deal with the Legion is just to throw soldier at them head-on....Exactly like the first battle. As time goes by the NCR is weakening and bleeding out slowly. They barely have the resources to equip their newly trained troopers. And what exactly has the Legion been doing in the meanwhile? Setting a foothold in the Mojave and making new allies with tribes such as the Great Khans and the Omertas. I could honestly go on and on.

Speaking of Neslon, why don't you ask them who they think will win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam?

To be entirely honest I voted N.C.R. Why? well, unlike the legion or any other faction, the section that is in the Mojave is only a fraction of the full republic as you have probably guessed the rest are spread out across California. Another reason is that the legion prefers melee weapons over ranged. N.C.R rangers and troops could easily mow down a lot of the legions forces before they got into melee combat with them. Mr House could win if his robots got upgraded. Problem is he needs a human to do a lot of his work for him and well with the courier dead then choices of candidates are slim it seems. Another reason why the Legion would lose is due to the fact that Caesar would die from him tumour at some point to so the legion would be in dissarray during the time of getting a new leader, thus allowing the N.C.R to push them back into Arizona.

The Khans would let the other factions fight it out, then attack when their supplies and morale are lowered from constantly warring with the other factions.

I say the NCR. On the face of it they're weakened by the President's assassination but in reality that just unites people, they would all get behind his replacement and go after his killers. let's face it, the Legion isn't all that, I've fought them several times at Nelson and the Dam and if me and two companions can take them out with not to much trouble, I'm pretty sure an organised army can.

Mr. House no chance, he needs the courier and I ain't there.

Benny? I'm not that bright but no matter which choice I make, I beat him, he's just chancer and doesn't stand a chance. Really, is anyone with that dress sense ever going to run anything?

The families + plus the Westside factions have a decent chance of taking advantage of a war between the NCR and the Legion but they're more likely to settle for the status quo with them keeping their current fiefdoms and the NCR controlling the Mojave.

There just aren't enough BoS to run a region, the Powder Gangers have more chance.

Lore > mere gameplay

You are right about Caesar dieing however you are wrong about it being bad for the Legion. Caesar's death would be the best thing to happen to the Legion. He is as opposite as to what he has built the Legion up to be as any one man could be. I don't understand why one of his guards who know of his weakness have not removed him from the equation yet. If the Caesar was dead the Legion would much much stronger then what it currently is.

There ain't no gameplay, that's the point of the question :wink_smile:

There is no actual confirmation or hints that Caesar actually dies without the courier's interventions.

Doesn't Ceasar have a brain tumor?

Yes also like your legion theory's really its funny especially the one where you think that the CL can find a Vault auto doc....priceless.

Lol are you serious...He has a brain tumor hes gonna die soon. He might not die 1 year from now but he has a expiration date and its closing quick.

@Barrack Obama...
Welcome to the forums

Sincerely,

Ace Hanlon.

I was never in that silly auto doc argument. Try again.



Once again, speculation. When not siding with the Legion, the Legion will refer to Caesar as if he's still alive in the final battle. Nothing confirms him actually dieing. But as I've said, Caesar is a moot point in this.