But the almighty CL will fall apart without him eventually.

Sadly, this is true.

@Ace this isnt about the future of CL, of course they will fall apart, but they will win a Hoover Dam before that.

It's pretty obvious.

Without the Courier....

-The Omertas would assist the Legion
-The Great Khans would assist the Legion
-The NCR is incredibly unorganized
-The Fiends would stage an attack on Camp McCarren
-The train at McCarren would blow up.

Also, ever try going to the last battle and just not interfering? The Centurions pretty much control the battle.

Christ, are you even listening? The majority of the Legion's forces are not in the Mojave, they're in Arizona and the other assorted territories, making their way to the dam. The men currently stationed are not the invasion force, they're too small in number for that; they're raiders, meant to spy, scout, harass, and sabotage the enemy. [censored], you can kill Caesar and slaughter everyone at the Fort down to the last man. It does nothing to stem the tide, zilch, nada it has ZERO effect on the upcoming battle, the attack goes as it was originally planned.

Look at all the people helping the Legion...Khans and Omeratas its gonna be in total disarray. So the Legion probably would win...unfortunately

Or so some people like to speculate.

Same with NCR. Most of their forces are back in California and their assorted territories.

Do you really think the Legate is fit to run CL?

Without the courier the Legion don't get the benefit of their howitzer.
The ncr are heavily dug-in on in already heavily fortified positions..

People actually claimed the Legion are better equipped? Er, no?

Legion gets massacred on the dam topside by snipers.
In the powerplants they fight on fairly equal footing, a few Legionaries make it to Olivers compound, maybe, then what? They fight through forcefields and Ranger vets/heavy troops?

Lanius doesn't even join the battle, he hides near his tent in the fort.. Some badass..

No need to get all twitchy about it, what 'you' can do means nothing in this thread though...
Without the courier Caesar could, for all we know not get so agitated, not go into his coma, keep being forgetful and simply forget his plans.
Doesn't mean jack what Lanius wants if Caesar is still alive and still a gibbering brain damaged idiot..

So you are using the NCR in lore against the Legion in the game, one or the other, in the game, the NCR is NOT that heavily fortified, in lore, the Legion is in complete swarms and using extremely heavy attacks, and in both in lore and the game, its allies attack the NCR all around the Mojave.

No one's claiming the Legion are better equipped (but they're not as poorly equipped as many make them out to be). They are, however, better trained. Every Legion soldier is a hardened warrior, trained and conditioned from childhood to never give up, show mercy, or retreat, and to fear their leader more than their enemy. NCR, meanwhile, is poorly funded at this point, most of their recruits are given only a few weeks training before being set out into the field, and the leadership is incompetent. Never underestimate the power of numbers and attrition. There's only so many people the snipers can kill before the Legionaires come into striking distance, and you can expect morale to quickly plummet in the soldiers once that happens.


The plan's already in effect by the start of the game. Lanius' army is on the move, and there's nothing anyone or anything can do to stop it.

The fortifications are all over the dam..
The general 'is' protected by forcefields and HEAVILY armed/experienced troops.
As for the legions 'allies' the khans and omerta's are pretty useless.. Have you ever seen the khans on the dam?
They last 30 seconds, at the most..

I haven't mixed lore with actuality, at all. I'm not a big fan of 'lore' tbh. It tends to get mis-used, often.

The Legion,
Lets look at the attack at the dam

Caeser sends his troops up the Intake tunnels, sneaking pass the NCR defenses and fortifications. The NCR was expecting to repell a frontal assault and the Legion swarms up from underneath.

He mounts a simultaneous attacks at Forlorn Hope and Camp Gulf, cutting off NCR reinforcements from those bases. The fiends assault camp McCarren handing the troopers there. While the Omertas assault the strip. You can hear about these events either from the epilogues or during the assault by listening to the radio. He also blocked the road leading to the Dam further cutting off the NCR reinforcements.

From what I see the legion swarming up the intake tunnels completely overwhelms the NCR on any end game other then pro-legion. (and if the Courier joins the legion Caeser doesn't need to send all that many people).

Caeser had a well organized and well timed series of attacks to strike at the NCR up and down the Mojave. Many people choose to ignores all these facts about the battle and fasley claim it was just a Frontal Assault. When in fact it was anything but. The plan is already in place, Caeser doesn't need to surive his tumor for the dam to fall. Without the Courier to save him he could still survive. Vuplis could kidnap a skilled doctor, Mitchell, Julie Farkas, Dr. Usanagi. And some elite centurions could probable handle Vault 34 long enough to reach the autodoc, they'd take signficant loses but its doable.

For the Legion to lose we'd need to see someone do something unexpected. Here's a possibility.

Knowing that the legion's conquest of vegas is almost inevittible. House and the NCR have a meeting. House offers the use of his Securitron Army in exhanage the NCR must sign a legal document that recognizes his sovereignty over The Strip. NCR Rangers can retrieve the Chip from Benny at the stops without much of a problem. The fact that House let them carry weapons into the strip would probably be enough proof to convince Swank to help. With the chip secure, house upgrades the local securitrons, and has the NCR ready the dam and the power station to activate the army. Oliver then launches a surprise attack on the Fort supported by a few of Houses upgraded robots, the goal of securing the bunker. The Legion would likely assume the target was Caeser and set up there defense accordingly. If successful the Securitron Army goes online and backed with the NCR troopers the legion would lose.

Wow. I've sparked quite a little debate.

I forgot to add Brotherhood of Steel up there. so if you've already voted, but wanted them ot be in the runnings here's your chance.

I don't mean to be an ass but this has come up before.

Still people like to debate about it :foodndrink:

This.

If the Brotherhood is up there, which makes little sense, i want Talon Company to be up there :L

You're taking this from the end slides.. The camp golf attacks would be 'after' their ending has them take the dam..
The fiends attack a barely populated mcarran, the troopers had already left..
The legions do indeed sneak into the dam, but they are still poorly armed. Doesn't really matter how well you are trained, bring a knife to a gunfight and you aren't going to get very far..
As far as the Legion kidnapping a doctor? I guess that is possible, would show the Legion that their god was 'weak' though, might not bode well for morale or Casars future..

As far as the Omerta's go, in order to get this far you HAVE to have killed house. Which means that the Omerta portion of the ending is kinda nullified, with house around that battle would have lasted all of 30 seconds..

NCR fights off the other attacks. They based most of their troops at the Dam because they know Caesar will send most of his troops to take it.

As someone already pointed out the Legion get massacred by snipers and heavy armoured troops on top of the dam. Inside is the only place they have a chance. Still all it takes is for someone to turn on the dams turbines and it is game over for the Legion.

Also General Oliver is very well protected. I doubt they could kill him without the Courier and their best fighter stays at the Legion Camp.

Casear would cause alot of trouble for NCR no doubt about that but in the end NCR would win. As long as they have the Dam nothing else in the Mojave really matters.

Boomers would defend themselves against the Legion and cause alot of trouble for them. Brotherhood might even step in and add their firepower against the Legion.

Boomers and BoS could cause trouble for the Legion. That is why Caesar wants them dealt with before hand.

Definitely the Legion. Everything in game points out how much of a sorry state the NCR is in.

Done.

@Styles: I don't think that makes you an ass. But I'm still proud of it.

Except that when their supply routes are cut off, then the NCR soldiers stationed at the dam are gonna' be more than a little [censored]ed. As for the Boomers and Brotherhood, the former are neutral to everyone and only concerned with defending their own territories. And the latter are too small a force to be a legitimate long-term threat, despite their technology advantage. Neither will join forces with anyone without outside interference.

Truth is legion wins there's no need for this debate.

1.legion has control of nelson which if you the courier doesn't destroy at the end on the radio you hear how the legion defeats the ncr stationed there.

2.W/O the courier to kill the brotherhood they assault Helios one and beat the ncr there as well.

3.The Omerta's assault the strip for ceaser catching mr house off guard AND blowing up the ncr embassy. 3 1/2 legion blows up the camp mcarran railway effectively cutting off ncr from retaking the strip.

4. the great khans block off the west side of the damn making any additional reinforcements arriving impossible.

5.legion kills ncr president (due to courier being unable to save him.

All the stated above are facts if the courier chose not to help in those mission's proof is in the ncr emergency radio.

I have to agree with Gabriel.
The NCR has a chance but they nearly lost in the first battle, the only reason NCR won was because Graham pursued the NCR after they secured the Dam.

Actually, without Courier intervention, they don't.