Actually, in all honesty... Talon Company would win :disguise:

Then it would not really be a battle but a really long siege and not much of one, seeing as how the Legion does not surround the Dam. Supply lines get cut, the NCR just calls up more troops. Or even start fighting the war with kid gloves off and bring in Vertibirds to do supply drops.

Everything about the war in the Mojave to me screems of politicians gimping the war. They don't want to send more troops into the Mojave because it will make Kimball and the NCR leadership look inept. "What, you can't win against an army of tribals?"

Wars cost money and NCR was not going into the Mojave expecting to fight a war agaisnt the Legion.

NCR can call up Vertibirds, artillery and thousands of more troops if need be. "Don't Piss on the Bear."



Without the Couriers intervention Leion don't attack in the first place.

WRONG! it happends during the assault on hooverdam. If you side with the NCR, Yes Man or House the attack is still mentioned despite the Legion's defeat. The attack is mentioned on the radio as I recall and during the ending slide if you did the Misfits quests.
So provide evidence the attack happens after hooverdam(despite the legion's retreat) or admit the two happened together.

There are a lot of men at Camp McCarren and its heavily fortifed without a sneaky way inside. You have no basis to claim most of the troopers had left.

And yet the legion do it all the time, most of them have cowboy repeaters at least which is certainly enough to match the service rifle. In close quarters a knife does actually beat a gun.



Assuming they have more then one Vertibird, really stop imaging the NCR has powers that they don't. There IS no NCR artiliery, that gun was there before the war and gets blown up in the first few seconds. The Legion does shrounded the dam in a fashion by swaming up the intake tunnels. They also put an obstruction on the road so the NCR can't send any reinforcements to the dam.
And where would they come from? The Strip is under a poison gas attack, the fiends are assaulting Camp McCarren, Forlorn Hope falles to Nelson and Camp Gulf is fighting its own battle.


Not really he has a couple NCR Veterans and a force field to buy him time during his retreat. And saying the best fighters would stay at the camp is stupid, they stay at the camp because the Courier is coming and part of a battle tactics is you don't send your best troops upfront. The Legion doesn't need to charge in there anyway. Oliver has to come out eventually, either to fight, to run, or to die


Don't use the game mechanics to justify your argument, the only reason the legion doesn't attack is because putting a time limit on the game would just piss people off. Fact of the matter is Forlorn Hope will fall without the Courier to beef up the defense and retake Nelson, Camp McCarren is crippled if you don't handle the fiends and the Omertas attack on the strip would be successful in harming the NCR. (doesn't matter of the Omertas survive or not). There attacks will hurt the NCR regardless.

And of course the Monorail blew up so reinforcements from the strip can't easily reach McCarren anyway.

Logistics, man, logistics. They win wars more often than tactics. You can't keep on calling up more troops and supplies, bases and routes need to be secured to transport both and keep any serious war effort up. With each camp and headquarters divided, overpowered and conquered, the NCR loses more and more presence in the Mojave, and has to spend more time recapturing territory than in driving back the Legion. Repeated failures will inevitably cause the war to lose support at home and bankrupt her economy (which is already in the toilet), leading to an eventual withdrawal. And Vertibirds? Look at them; they are NOT efficient at moving large enough soldiers and supplies at once.

Throughout the game, the Legion has embarked on a divide and conquer strategy, and without any interference from the Courier, each part of the plan is set to go off successfully. Even if they lose a battle (which is unlikely because they're numerous and skilled, whereas the NCR, while also numerous, is mostly green and run by idiots), the Legion is still poised to ultimately win the war.


Will you cut this crap already? Lorewise, the Legion will attack the dam eventually regardless, with or without the Courier's presence.

Actually I would agree that the NCR is up a certain creek without a paddle without the Crourier. However, Even if the Legion defeats the NCr at the Dam, and the other bases, they still have to deal with Mr. House. (because he wasn't assassinated by the Courier) At that point you have House and his securitrons fighting off the Legion, which is probably still hurting from the Second Battle for Hoover Dam. We already know House is a brilliant tactician, and his Securitrons, even Mrk I, are pretty damned tough.

Yes I would agree with you that the Legion is holding a lot of the cards, but I don't think they are beyond defeat.

"Assuming they only have one Vertibitd" I doubt they only have one. They captured Navarro. Chances are they also have an alliace with the Shi or that they Shi are apart of NCR. We know NCR has Vertibirds. Assuming they only have one is just stupid. NCR does have artillery. Fallout 2 has alot locations with Howitzers like the Sierra Army Depot. If the Boomers can see the value in them I am sure NCR will as well. They also have the ability to manufacture things in NCR.

Legion don't have anything that can take down force fields. When it comes to troops with Light Macine guns and Mini-guns vs guys with melee weapons. I am going to side with the troops with machine guns.

Again it is about Faction psychology. No faction wants to make a move without the unknowns dealt with. You can't ingore that.

This. NCR may look weak but they aren't going to back down sure Legion soldiers have been heavily trained but like someone said you bring a knife to a gunfight and your good as dead. Not to mention the Rangers would swallow the Legionaires whole.

Yes you can just call up more troops. It solves alot of things. Have you guys not paid attention to anything war wise in the last 10 years? When Armchair Pattons and politicians trying to fight wars in a politically correct way things don't work out. When the army finally says [censored] it all send in more troops things got better. You can't win wars with polpolitically correctness (at least not very quickly). It is why NCR has not just kicked down to doors to the Lucky 38 and killed Mr.House. It is also why NCR does not send in everything they have, because their leaders don't want to look bad. They don't want the people of NCR to know they are having a hard time fighting tribals. Having to call more people to war may not go over well in NCR.

Vertibirds are effective. If your supply lines are cut, you fly in supplies. Legion can't do [censored] all about it.

Yes at some point Legion will attack but by the time they decide to it maybe to late. Caesar could die or NCR could finally grow some balls and stop fighting the war from behind a desk in Shady Sands.

Ok, for the people arguing FOR the NCR, let's flip the argument, since I honestly don't know why people would believe in the NCR here.

What the people saying the Legion will win are bringing to the debate table are pieces of evidence in game that show the Legion as the dominating force. The Centurions directly in the battle likely killing off all the NCR troopers, the NCR radio lighting up with reports of all sorts of problems throughout the region, the Legion successfully recognizing their own weaknesses (i.e., it'd be suicide to try to fight a team of snipers on top of what's essentially a one-way road when your force prefers close combat) and choosing to attack at points that minimize that weakness, etc etc etc.

What EVIDENCE do you see, provided in the game, that the NCR is also thinking things through and recognizing and minimizing their own weaknesses?
THERE ISN'T ANY!

The main argument of the NCR supporters is that snipers would beat dudes running at them with clubs in a location like the dam and that the NCR has the stronger prescence in the Mojave. This is quite funny, because I'm sure this is what the NCR thought as well. Hence, they're unprepared, while the Legion has thought up all these tricks and strategies to make sure that when they DO bring their knives to a gun fight, that gun fight occurs at point-blank range. The Legion changes the playing field and DOESN'T confront them on top of the dam, focusing on fighting within the dam or jumping out of doorways on top of the dam to flank soldiers that just passed by. The NCR....doesn't respond back.

If you ask yourself the question "what did the NCR do correctly in the war," you draw an absolute blank. And THAT is why it's clear that the Legion would win.

So? you don't think the Enclave would have evacuated or destoryed as many Vertibirds as possible to keep the NCR from capturing them? You say the NCR has artiliery but they don't there's one gun and its blown up by the legion. There isn't even a good place around in the dam to mount artilery. If they did try and bring in artilery the legion might take it before it makes the journey from the Mojave Outpost to the dam. The fact the NCR doesn't use them is evidence they don't have Vertibirds to spare, not combat ready ones anyway.

You claim the Legion couldn't do anything about them. They'd be easy pickings for a few elite centuriions using anti-material rifles when they came in for a landing.
*and they do have a good stockpile of anti-material rifles, plenty of there elites use them in the final battle at the dam* Vertibirds are not all that tough and can be shot down.


And you base this on what? What about the elite legionars with marksman carbines or anti-material rifes?. The fact most of the legionars attacking the dam do actually have guns. The Legion could go around the forcefields they don't actually block the path. The legion could shut off the dam generators taking out the power. They could do nothing, Oliver can't fight the legion from behind that forcefield, he can't lead his army all he can do is wait for he legion to walk around the forcefield or try and retreat. The force fields don't do much of anything to protect Oliver.



And whats your argument the war would go on for fifty years if the Courier doesn't take on the unknowns. Side with Yes man and you can skip all those unknowns, Boomers, Omertas, Brotherhood. They can all be skipped. And if they can be skipped in the Courier's presence they can be skipped in his abstence. So once again stop using a game mechanic to justify your argument.

Lets look at this another way, the reason the legion doesn't attack is because of the Courier, the game mechanic gives you the opportunity to play the game rather then have events forced upon you.

The ncr has a limited presence when it comes to retainng the prison and things like this, because, guess why? They're mainly focused on the dam... :facepalm:

The Legion do pull out a pretty nifty trick by coming in through the turbines, which are easily reactivated, 'blending' the incoming Legionaries.. :facepalm:

The Legion don't recognise their own weakness at all, simply put, their weakness is over-expansion.. They can't take and hold what they want without risking everything. They aren't some kind of cure-all for the wasteland, not even remotely. They are a petty tribe or raiders, albeit an exceptionally large one. Raiders no less though. I'm not sure what some of the people here have seen but on every single playthrough I've done 'without' my help the Legion get annihilated on AND 'in' the dam. Without the current patch beefing up the ncr weaponry even more its even more of a one-sided splatter-fest..

"There are a lot of men at Camp McCarren and its heavily fortifed without a sneaky way inside. You have no basis to claim most of the troopers had left. "

The basis to my claim is quite simple really, there is a MAJOR battle happening/about to happen at a major power location.. The ncr are bringing together their forces and even bringing in 'elite' forces from exotic locations, you really think they'd leave a huge chunk of possible Legion murderers twiddling their thumbs at mccarran? If you say so... lol

NCR knows full well that Legion will attack the Dam with the bulk of their forces. NCR keeps the bulk of their forces at the dam to stop them. NCR does not do much to stop the Legion trying to attack their flanks because they know it is nothing but a diversionary tactic meant to draw troops away fromt he Dam. NCR does not fall for this.

We know Caesar is sick and theroefore time is on NCR's Side. People in New Vegas talk about how Legion will fall apart without Caesar. We know NCR's tactic is on of containment. Keep Caesar on his side of the Colorado. General Oliver was proven right, that the Legion will send bulk of their troops to take the Dam. We know that all it takes is for someone to turn on the turbines at the Dam and it is gam over for the Legion. We know no one wants to attack until the unknowns are taken care of, at some poine Legion will say to hell with it and attack anyways but by then it could be to late and the Bear finally grow some balls.

I lol'ed.

You guys sure you don't have the Legion and the NCR confused?? I'm beginning to wonder if the NCR supporters in this thread have just been getting the names confused this whole time.

Your lol made me lol... It's this very FACT that allows you to defeat Lanius without firing a single bullet..

NCR has the ability to make things. I am sure they can make Veribirds. If not them the Shi can, they wanted the blue prints in Fallout 2. NCR could have got the plans from Navarro. Point is thinking they only have one is just stupid.

NCR does have artillery. Pay attention to Fallout 2. Its full of artillery pieces. The Fact that they don't have any in New Vegas doesn't mean they don't have any. It just means they don't see the need to have them in the Mojave yet, after all they did not go into the Mojave thinking they would have to go to war. Legion are just a bunch of tribals to the people of NCR. NCR is not going to invade Legion lands anytime soon. Moving such equipment would take along time and money. The rail road is not built yet. If they really needed to NCR would find away to get them to the Mojave. Point is by doing so they are telling the People back in NCR that the war isn't going so well and that makes the leaders look bad.

Without the Courier to ease Caesar's mind he does not make a move until much later and by then it could be to late.

As an added bonus. With more time the Deal between Van Grafts and NCR will go through and NCR will be armed with plasma and laser weapons as well :thumbsup:
They also have the full support of the Gun Runners as well and Crimson Caravan.

Besides, I still maintain my Mr House theory. He sends a squad of securitrons to Eldorado, reactivates the L38, Vapourizes the fort with his Roof mounted anti-missile lasers.

What are the Legion goig to do, wave their machetes at the scary lazer beam? :thumbsup:

Remember this entire debate is theoretical, so this idea is just as valid, and it is ultimate. House is the beat of the Mojave Legion/NCR are just HIS pawns.

I think any random Legion raiding party can raid Vault 34 and raid the autodoc and raid back to the Fort with the auto doc parts and use the autodoc to raid Caesar's brain and fix him up. Going to raid Vault 34 is something any raiding mercenary can do.

They'd use tons of cave fungus, right? <_<

Securitrons are severely finite in number. I would imagine that the loss of one is a bigger blow to House than the loss of ten men for the Legion. At the very worst, they would suffer significant casualties, but would still ultimately win.

But that might be kind of a moot point, because the Legion wouldn't even need to face House. All they need to do to weaken him is shut down/destroy the dam's generators.


This is more like bringing a revolver to a fight against ten guys with knives.


So now it's all "political correctness" that's holding the NCR's war effort back. It has nothing to do with the fact that Legion is playing smart. Here's a few facts for you:

-NCR did NOT not attack House out of sense of mercy or "political correctness." They didn't attack him because 1) it would have caused them significant casualties, and 2) because then they would have been caught in a war on two fronts against House and the Legion.

-Once again, LOOK at the Vertibird. They have limits, they can't carry a whole lot of people. You honestly expect that they can reliably deliver a steady enough reinforcements? Food? Weapons? Ammo? Medicine? And you assume that the NCR has them in enough abundance, when we only ever see them using one, for the president? Based on what?

Literally, you're pulling this [censored] out of your ass. What evidence do you have, in the game, that the leaders "do not want to look bad?"

A.....diversionary tactic? How on earth is attacking Camp Golf, Forlorn Hope etc a diversionary tactic? If we were at war and the goal of the war was to overtake New York City, would you say "ignore them. It's just a diversionary tactic" if I were to capture every major city and state surrounding New York City?
That same kind of narrow-minded thinking is what made Graham lose the dam. He was too focused on the moment and not on the possibilities, said "it's ok, I have the dam! :celebration: " and advanced on Boulder City. Before you know it, he failed to get Boulder City and lost the dam. Point being, even if the NCR DID hold the dam, but lost Forlorn Hope, Camp Golf and found themselves completely surrounded at the dam with the nearest unharmed NCR station being the Mojave Outpost, how long do you think they'd hold onto it?



Where are you getting this? Whether Caesar dies or not, the plan continues. If you play for the NCR, General Oliver has you called into his office to talk about taking action. Before he can even finish telling you his plan of attack, the Legion attacks the dam. This happens whether or not Caesar lives and Caesar's death does absolutely nothing to hinder the attack. Countless people, including Marcus, Mr. House, Boone etc will tell you that they doubt Caesar's death will effect the battle, arguing that they may want to capture New Vegas in tribute to their fallen leader.
And "keep Caesar on his side of the Colorado?" Again, here's a list of what will happen according to the NCR's very own radio broadcast during the battle:

The NCR Embassy in New Vegas being bombed.
Camp McCarran being attacked by Fiends.
Camp Forlorn Hope being attacked by Caesar's Legion
Camp Golf is under attack. If you have completed Flags of Our Foul-Ups, they will mention the Misfits' repelling the attack. (without Courier intervention, the Misfits would NOT repel the attack)
The Monorail being bombed by Caesar's legion spies, if you complete I Put a Spell on You in the Legion's favor, or did not complete it at all. (without Courier intervention, this happens)
Rioting in Freeside if you did not side with the NCR and didnt stop the violence between the Kings and the NCR (without Courier intervention, the King never learns of the NCR's peaceful intentions, and thus, this happens)
The Omertas staging a coup on the Strip, with the other families and the Securitrons stopping them.

They're hardly doing that, and pretty much all of their ties in the Mojave have been cut off. The only people that are there to protect the dam are those who were already there. Divide and conquer 101. Caesar has an incredibly well coordinated plan and he's cut off each camp into an individual unit. Caesar's attacking forces intended on doing this, and thus they're probably better prepared. Camp Mccarren etc though? These attacks are a surprise for them. They'll probably fall.

And turning on the turbines? Why doesn't Mike Lawson do this himself? Because he's not a fighter, he's fleeing. Why don't the NCR soldiers do this? Because they're soldiers, not engineers; they can't. It's very questionable if this would happen. Even Mr. House's ending and the fact that that idiot Fantastic is in charge of HELIOS One seems to imply the NCR isn't exactly swimming in engineers, and we know Mike Lawson, the head engineer at the dam, just runs away.

Here are some FACTS for you.

1) It would have cause significant casualties, to the people thay want to make apart of the NCR. Going in and killing people does not make them love you. NCR wants Vegas for the wealth it will make them. Killing everyone will not make them wealthy. It will make them hated.

2) Legion were not around when NCR first met Mr.House.

3) Veribirds can carry alot of stuff. They can carry a squad of people in PA. They can carry a crate of Stimpaks. NCR could find ways to make them lighter such as removing armour and weapons. Or they could just fly alot of them in.

4) NCR does not go around killing people to get their way. They try diplomacy first. Pulling this out of my ass? Try paying attention to Fallout as a whole and not just New Vegas. Will learn things that way.

"Securitrons are severely finite in number. I would imagine that the loss of one is a bigger blow to House than the loss of ten men for the Legion. At the very worst, they would suffer significant casualties, but would still ultimately win.

But that might be kind of a moot point, because the Legion wouldn't even need to face House. All they need to do to weaken him is shut down/destroy the dam's generators."

Not so, that would shut off the strips power, House and his securitrons were still operational 'before' the ncr came and got the dam working again...

I kinda like this debate though, lets say, by some miracle the Legion defeat the NCr at the dam. How do they deal with Mr House himself? House's 'fortress' is impenetrable, I mean Caesar had a ELEVATOR DOOR under his fort for years, he tried blasting it, drilling it, everything.. They ain't getting into the '38...

OR they could use Vertibird gunships and just assault the Fort and Legates camp 'before' the legion even know whats happening..

And assuming they have an airforce is equally stupid, you have no basis for the claim the NCR has some super weapon hiding in the wings, they don't if they did after ten years of that quagmire they'd have used them. Maybe they lost there Vertibird fleet in the war with the brotherhood. The fact is the Dam is FAR to important and this war has gone on way to long for the NCR to simply hold back the vertibirds. And as I said those things aren't exactly hard to shoot down.

The legion does have high powered weapons waiting in the wings until the final battle,.


Moving artilery takes a long time, the caravan could be attacked or captured by the legion in route, there also isn't a good place anywhere near the dam to mount artilery. And it certainly wouldn't have saved them from legion elite swarming up the intake tunnels. Unless they blew up the dam but that be a rathe pyrric victory.




Yes they did, when they arrived in the Mojave they allied with House and the famlies out of fear of the legion. When you question House about the subject thats how he explains the history behind the 3 families and the NCR.



Didn't the NCR hire raiders to harass Vault 8 and support drug trafficing in New Reno in order to force redding and Vault 8 to join them. Don't multiple people in new vegs explain how the NCR rolls over people and makes them a part of there country regardless of there feelings.
No the NCR allied with House because they didn't want to fight him when the threat of the legion was just on the horizon.


Wrong, 100% wrong.
As I said before all the unknown factors can be skipped if you side with Yes Man, Boomers, Omertas and Brotherhood etc. If they can be skipped in the couriers presence they can be skipped in his abstence. The timing of the attack is entirely at the convience of the player. STOP claiming a game mechanic as evidence.


His securitrons wouldn't have the firepower or the numbers without the chip to assault the fort, the lasers are likely designed to hit air targets, and House simply doesn't have the power reserves. The legion is perfectly capable of destroying the Mark I robots.

the autodoc isn't that far inside, the real raidiation.damage comes from trying to reach the armory.

Yes, AFTER you tell him that this is the weakness of the NCR, and it will infest the Legion if they take the Mojave.