Attacking Camp Golf, Forlorn Hope etc. is a diversionary tactic. In the end, whatever you own in the Mojave means nothing, the end reward is the Dam. The NCR can lose every location in the Mojave, and still win the battle. Once NCR loses the Dam, they are gone for good, no matter how well McCarran is doing.

Indeed, however it is only the NCR's weakness because they are at war.. The ncr without the legion there are fine, the Legion on the other hand are crippled either way..

NCR only really care about the dam. Yes they want the Strip but they want the Key to the Mojave. Without the Dam the locations the Legion take are useless. Those attacks are just meant to draw forces away from th Dam. Simple as that. NCR holds the dam they can then go a mob up the rest of the Legion. Simply call in more troops from NCR. Any more Legion troops would still have to move around the dam.

Legion will still run into the Boomers and BoS and have to deal with them. They will also have to deal with NCR attacking from the Dam and the people of NCR not wanting to become slaves.

Like I said before Caesar will cause a [censored] storm for NCR but if they don't take the dam it is game over fot the Legion.

I am trying to say is without the Courier the Legion delay their attack. The longer they delay the more time it gives NCR to get it's [censored] together. Caesar could die causing the Legion to Fall apart or they may call off the attack.

And if you lose everything BUT the dam and find those stationed at the dam completely surrounded? How is that a diversionary tactic? That's exploiting the NCR's main weakness: that they have their troops spread out everywhere and spread too thin.

The NCR proved in the first battle that you can lose the dam without actually losing it. In the same way, you can hold the dam without actually holding it.

"the autodoc isn't that far inside, the real raidiation.damage comes from trying to reach the armory. "

Not really, you start getting radiation damage 'before' you even enter the vault.
The Legion are going to have absolutely ZERO radiation resistance and some tent dwelling skirt-wearers are going to know exactly where the auto-docs are and what parts to take right? :facepalm:

The NCR is addressing it's weak points, thanks to Van Graffe greed. Ignoring Jean-Baptiste's little murder-run, the quests in Birds of a Feather could be done by a blind monkey. The Courier is not needed. So, if Caesar waits too long to attack the dam, there will be copious energy weapons arrayed against them, instead of Service Rifles. Even poorly aimed, a high volume of plasma rifle fire being tossed downrange is going to make a grotesque mess of the enemies. Tribeams and Multiplas, and Plasma defenders inside for close-quarters work would help narrow the gap as well. Not sure the weapons upgrade would be enough to turn the tide but the NCR is learning.

For the thousandth time, where are you getting this? Do ANY playthrough: Mr. House, Yes Man, NCR or Legion. No matter which one you do and no matter what becomes of Caesar, the Legion still attacks the dam and they ALWAYS attack first, and they're always more organized. The organization of the NCR is completely dependent on the Courier. The only influence the Courier has on the Legion is whether or not they get artillery. Without the Courier, no they don't. Even if the Courier's not there, it's questionable if Caesar would die, as Lanius doesn't speak of a dead Caesar if you play for the NCR/House/Yes Man without killing Caesar yourself; he speaks of Caesar as if he were alive.


The arguments presented in this thread by Legion supporters are 90% based on in-game evidence, statements and occurances. The arguments being presented by NCR supporters are 90% based on pure speculation.

Radiation Suits.

The legion has their spies out everywhere. They attack BECAUSE the loose ends that they've been worried about have all been tied up (even if they are against them, no longer unknown variables)
Without the courier, there is always that nagging doubt that stalls them.

Love that. You say I am 100% wrong and then turn around and admit it is an unknown Factor :happy:

Have you even played Fallout 2? Do you not understand that NCR is huge? NCR has a population that could be by now in the millions. Factions in Fallout 2 other then the BoS and Enclave had advanced tech.

You are not thinking like a politician. You are thinking like an armchair Patton. Politicians don't want to look bad. They don't want to tell people they have to raise taxes and draft their kids to fight what many would see as a bunch of tribals. They will do what they can to make it look like they have everything under control.

Once they realise they can't keep diluting themselves they will send it what is needed to win the war/battle.

At the time of New Vegas NCR is not ready to do this but if the Legion delays their attack on the dam and keep causing troubles for NCR. It will cause NCR to finally snap and say to hell with it "send in everything we have!" Can't use real world examples (against forum rule) but one only had to look back on the last ten years.

War should not be fought behind a desk.

Legion attack the Dam yes. My point you aren't getting is that without the Courier Caesar would end up waiting and by that point it could be to late. Caesar wants the unknowns dealt with. I have already explained what could happen if they arn't dealt with. Without the courier caesar will just keep putting it off.

Then why does the Legion still attack first if you play for the NCR and never tie up those loose ends for them?

Yeah.. The legion don't have pip-boys, geiger counters or ANY tech.. They wouldn't even know they were being poisoned by radiation until they either turned into ghouls or just died..

You can't NOT tie up the boomers, house, BoS.. Have you actually played through the ncr side?

Agreed.

But the Legion does have a thousand or so loyal Legionnaires willing to die in the name of the Legion, and for Caesar. I sincerely doubt they'd have trouble finding willing volunteers to subject themselves to the radiation of Vault 34 if it means possibly saving Caesar. That or they'd be so ignorant to the radiation that they wouldn't even recognize the threat and simply go in without thinking twice.

Eh??

Think we misunderstood each other somewhere. I assumed you were saying the Legion wouldn't attack first because they'd have "nagging doubt" regarding all the loose ends not tied up, and I argued that the Legion always attacks first, whether you tie those loose ends up for them or not. If we're talking about a Mojave without the Courier, then we can basically assume House never dies (no one can get in), SOMEONE is bound to take care of the BoS (cause wtf everyone wants them dead) and the Boomers would remain neutral.

Yes, and House makes Caesar nervous, the Boomers power makes Caesar nervous and only House knows where the BoS is.. They would delay without the courier taking care of these things.

Like I said, you can do a playthrough for Mr. House himself (or any non-legion playthrough) and the Legion still attacks first. You can do a Yes-man playthrough where you completely ignore the Boomers and BoS and they still attack first. It would seem more like having those issues dealt with would be ideal, but they're willing to continue without them, too.

Yeah but when you play for the Legion they don't attack till you deal with the unknowns. Caesar attacks in the other cases because things are changing even if you arn't the ones doing it. Things for yes man and Mr.House still move the story along. If the Courier was not around the Factions would still stay the same. Mr.House would keep sending people around to find the chip. Benny and Yes Man will wait for their chance to kill house. NCR will sit around holding off the Legion and the Legion will wait till they have enough people to attack the dam and the unknowns are dealt with. Legion calls up more men, NCR calls up more men.

The Courier sets things in motion.

Going to war against House would have resulted in significant NCR casualties, more than was worth the trouble over, especially since House was willing to concede McCarran Airport and 95% of Hoover Dam's power output in the Treaty of New Vegas, drawn up shortly after "first contact" as it were. But NCR was not interested in taking "handouts" forever, and the only reason they did not start to act against him was because the Legion began to encroach in short order. Diplomacy is not an act of "political correctness," it's pragmatic; open warfare is expensive and wins no favors from anyone on any side.

Also, Vertibirds don't fly for free, they need to be refueled and maintained. They do not have the spatial capacity to transport a significant number of soldiers individually. Flying them back and forth constantly is an economic nightmare, and no way to fight a war that in all appearances is being lost. Not to mention, it's an assumption based off of nothing that they actually have a lot of them to use. There's nothing in New Vegas or ANY Fallout game to suggest this.


As a matter of fact, you can. Not for NCR (or House or Legion), the game mechanics simply won't let you. But you can neatly skip them on the Yes-Man path. And it changes nothing; the attack still happens.

House requires you to deal with the Bos and the Boomers, you fail the Legion quest when they find out you're doing it. Yes man, hmm can't remember the specific requirements for yes man..

Even if yes man doesn't require them, that would mean that most of the endings supports the theory that Caesar waits till he 'knows'..
You can't base an argument off of a small 'chance', thats basically relying on the numerous in-game outcome possibilities..

Thats like saying House has infinite Securitrons because yes man can never die.
The yes man ending is there so you can 'always' finish the game no matter how many bridges you burn.

Edit: Kind of answered your post there too zetirox lol

What do I admit.
I say all those unknown factors can be skipped so your argument that Caeser is waiting for them to be resolved is complete [censored].


Its a game mechanic. All those unknown x factors the NCR, House and Caeser might send the Courier on are quests so you have something to do in the game. The fact they can be skipped means that Caeser could attack without them being down and rather soon after the game begins.

The battle at hooverdam occurs then the Courier decides it occurs. Because its a game. If the Courier isn' there, Then the Legion attacks with the Legate arrives with the reinforcements.


The boomer won't bother Caeser if he doesn't bother them. He does in fact decide to ignore them in the legion ending. The brotherhood aren't really an issue there hiding in their bunker. Caeser would cease the Mojave before they ever came out.

Execpt he will take the dam thats the point, his attack force easily overwhelmes the NCR defense without the Courier there. Those snipers on the roof aren't much of a defense to the enemy swarming up from below.



And horribly over extended, thats another point made in the game. Your also ignoring the fact the legion covers a vast territory as well they may have a population rivaling that of the NCR. We really don't know the full scale of the legion either.

So all we can do is take in-game evidence.


Execpt that doesn't happen where's the mention of the NCR's return if they lose Hooverdam. If they had combat Vertibirds to bring to bear you'd think Oliver would include that in his threats but he doesn't. You'd think House or Caeser would mention how they'd eventually deal with them but they don't

Your entire argument is based on your assumption the NCR has dragged its feet for ten years and lost hundreds or thousands of lives and endured a draft for political reasons? Considering how long and how hard the NCR has been fighting and what it has endured there would be enormous pressure to use everything they have. When your supply of water and electricty depends on the outcome of the war getting support to do what it takes to win isnt that hard. Countires don't hold back air superiority of they have it, so either the NCR doesn't many vertibirds or they know the legion has a counter messure such as there elites with anti-material rifles ready to shoot them down.

They aren't stupid they can see the autodoc in Caeser's tent they can be shown what the parts look like, its not that difficult a journey. The survivors of the ghouls can then be treated by the autodoc.

I really hope House has his Liberty Prime robot somewhere in old world blues lol

Barbequed Legionary anyone?

NCR could have taken the strip and McCarran and anything else they wanted but they did not want to kill the locals to do it. "Sugnificant NCR casualties" yeah right. A couple dozen Robots vs thousands of NCR troops :rolleyes:

Vertibirds can be used to drop ammo, food and supplies to people, skipping the cut suppy lines, leaving Caesar's Men out in the desert. By the time NCR brings in Vertibirds they might as well spend the money and time needed to maintain them. That is my point, NCR wants to avoid that for as long as they can but if the Legion keeps cutting their suppy lines at some point NCR will have no other option. NCR can fly squads of Rangers behind Legion lines. One Squad can do alot of damage behind the lines. They can also attack Legion troops from the air. Drop bombs. Use them for scouting. The one that controls the Skies controls the war.

They can aslo use them to fly in howitzers

Also, I think without the courier, Boone would have taken up his Legion hunting antics a little earlier.
From one of his Endings he becomes far more feared than anyone in the game, they actually put an super-enormous bounty on his head but the legion are too afraid to take it..

I say Boone Takes down the Legion single handed.
Because he actually pretty much has on one of my playthroughs.. Haha

So Caesar won't act until "he knows." Knows what? That the situation concerning the "unknowns" is...exactly the same as before? That makes no [censored] sense. Never mind how utterly nonsensical it is to "safely ignore" them when it seems they're becoming a more credible threat (such as having the Boomers and Brotherhood secure alliances with the other guys).

Seems that everyone has forgotten that Caesar isn't even commanding the battle for Hoover Dam and his men have little to nothing to do with it. It's all Lanius' call, Lanius' men. All Caesar and everyone else is doing is covering as much ground as they can while waiting for the legate to come marching in with the cavalry. It's purely game mechanics that the attack doesn't happen until all the right quests have been completed.