Pretty much what the title says. If the Courier had died after Benny shot him, who would have taken control over New Vegas and why?

I think the whole Benny/House/Chip thing is a bit too contrived to really speculate on (In my opinion), but it's heavily implied that without the Courier's interventions, the Legion would win the battle for the dam.

I wonder how many are going to be biased in this poll.
I'm not biased even though I say Legion would win.
Everything points to them winning the battle.
Even if Benny escapes to the Fort he will still be taken.
Even if Mr House takes the chip from Benny he still has to get to the Fort.
And NCR is being bled dry from money by House, it's army is poorly trained, has low morale and very crap equipment.
While Legion, aside from Silus, has only prospered in their military advantages over and over.
NCR needs The Courier.
House needs The Courier.
Legion on the other hand don't "need" The Courier but his assistance could ease the battle for them.

My votes on the Legion, they're not struggling, the rest are. I mean that in the sense that EVRYONE needs the couriers help, they don't although it helps make things alot easier for them.

Legion needs the Courier. Since they lost the first battle, Caesar has been afraid of attacking. Since this is just a debate about winning the Dam itself, I would was the Legion has a good chance. They have spies all over the place. NCR apparently does but we never see them. Still taking the dam itself, the NCR has heavy troops and Rangers. Someone could also turn on those turbines.

I have to say NCR. Though they would be taking many casualties. Plus the war would be very bloody.

So many of this same topic. What i reckon would be intresting who would win if there were a group of the courier, and they all joined the main four options? In fact that idea is so great i'm threading it.
Oh and no Mole people? this poll is baised.

Its difficult to say, since there is always the possibility that House could get a new "employee" or Benny could somehow sneak into the fort. If neither of those happen though, then I think the Legion is in the best position to win the battle. However with no courier to fix Caesar up, its doubtful how long the Legion would last or if their victory would really mean anything.

If Joshua Grahams would of been a better strategist, the Legion could of won the first battle for the Dam.

Science Fiction writers call it a Jonbar Hinge (or Point)-- the point in history where timelines split. Sometimes it hinges on a single incident and sometimes the changes are more sweeping. What if Oswald missed? What if the Confederacy won? What if the Nazis developed an atomic bomb? The Fallout series is based on a Jonbar Hinge -- the idea that sometime in the mid 20th century certain sociological and technological developments never occurred.

The Op has identified one Jonbar Hinge -- what if the Courier died? Who would win?

Probably not Benny or House. Benny has the chip. In a universe where he is not fleeing the Courier's revenge, it is possible he would be better prepared to sneak into the weather station and reactivate the robots. But unless he has already slain House it would do him no good. It seems Benny and House are at stalemate, unless House forcibly enters the Tops. It's possible that he would do so if there was no Courier and no one else was recruited. It would seem that the Securitron Vault being activated is one Jonbar Hinge, but unless Benny somehow gains access to the Lucky 38 and kills House, or House overcomes his reluctance to invade the Tops, that this is moot.

That leaves the NCR and the Legion. Will Kimball die without the Courier? Will Caesar (I never got this far in my aborted Legion game -- does the Courier save his life or would Caesar live?)?
It seems that it's Kimball's visit that sets off the second Battle of Hoover Dam. It's hard to say whether troop morale would be affected by his being alive or dead, so the success of the assassination may not be a Jonbar Hinge.
Taken at face value, and considering that without the Courier there would be no Boomers, BoS, Remnants or Khans involved at the Dam (and don't forget the Fiends at McCarren), I would venture to say that the Legion would win. They would overwhelm the NCR by sheer numbers (we don't get to see the entire Legion army said to be camped in the East). With the supply situation in shambles, the NCR would retreat. Caesar would occupy the Mojave and begin to siege California. Whether this would spread his forces too thin to maintain a working empire is open to conjecture -- the Courier thought so, and Lanius agreed.

It seems like the second Jonbar Hinge is the Securitron vault. If it is not activated, the Legion will spread warmth and love throughout the Mojave.

Legion, hands down. House has a plan of action, but unfortunately, it heavily relies on hiring outside help to perform some very delicate operations, and it's doubtful he'd be able to find someone trustworthy and competent enough to infiltrate the Fortification Hill Bunker (and even the Courier's a risk). Benny/Yes-Man in addition to that, needs someone to get inside the Lucky 38 to off House, which is impossible without any formal invitation. And NCR...they're just too damn inept, they're being led by idiots, their soldiers are poorly trained, morale is low, and nobody in the Mojave wants them around. Right at the beginning, the ball's in the Caesar's court, he's doing wonders harassing the NCR and sabotaging their efforts every step of the way while waiting for the main army to come marching in.

Before Kimball goes to the dam the Boomers and BoS have to be dealt with. Without the Courier to deal with them Kimball would not visit the Dam. The stalemate between Legion and NCR at the dam will come to ahead when Caesar dies of his

Benny/Yes man..

Benny Shoots the courier dead. Returns to the L38 with an unkowing Mr House, tell him he 'somehow' retrieved the chip from some 'raiders'. House upgrades the securitrons and sends Benny off to the Fort. Caesar does his usual thing of trying to get Benny to blow up the S. Vault. (As the doors are indestructible apparently) Benny obviously upgrades the Securitrons there, tells Caesar he helped him, gets sent back to house, kills house, installs yes man. He then waits for the battle to starts, sneaks his way into the operations center in the dam, powers up the securutrons army and then Securitron Mk11's stomp the bejeesus out of the Legion, send the NCr packing..

Simples.

The Boomers and Brotherhood, if neutral, are a non-factor in the upcoming battle and Kimball's visit. The former could make a good ally, and the latter is more of a potential long-term problem best tackled sooner than later. Kimball will comer regardless of their presence (and most definitely get killed). There's also no "stalemate" between NCR and the Legion; Legion's winning, hands down. By the time the Battle for Hoover Dam begins, not only will the Legion have caused all sorts of problems with their various moles, but they'll have used their Omerta allies to effectively wipe Vegas off the map.


If any of that was possible (which is questionable), then Benny could have easily done all that whether or not the Courier survived. In fact, if any of this was possible, Benny wouldn't even need to kill the Courier; all he would need to do is just let the delivery go as planned.

Sometimes, I do wonder if his plan could have gone off without a hitch if he hadn't tried cheating...

Really all in all its a tough say who would win and who would loose. You cant predict the future.

Omerta thugs vs Securitons? Really.. I predict a little civil unrest, quickly finished off by the big angry robots.. :S

Every major player. NCR, House, Legion and Yes Man make you deal with the Boomers and BoS and even Khans before the battle starts. Which means no one makes a move for the dam till those unknowns are dealt with say for maybe Benny.

The is irrelevant because Lanius and his troops are the ones who dictates what's going on on the field of battle and not Caesar.

And the BoS and Boomers are not factors in this.

EDIT- Wow a lot of activity here in the past 2 minutes.

Also, if the courier dies the entire game changes right?

Following that train of thought I change my opinion..
House wins, instead of bothering with his 'upgrades', he deploys a squad of securitrons to Eldorado, reboots the L38's reactor and then Erases the fort from the map with the Roof mounted lasers as a show of force to the ncr, who quickly run away with their tale between their legs. lol

The Omertas have a ton of weapons secretly in storage and are planning to chlorine bomb the strip, right after destroying the NCR embassy. Even if they get slaughtered by the Securitrons (which, unless upgraded, aren't really that impressive on their own), it's going to divide up the NCR forces, making them that much weaker when the main offensive is pushed.


You're using gameplay mechanics to justify your argument. Addressing the Brotherhood and Boomers are all actions the major players are addressing while they wait for the big events, like Kimball's speech and Lanius' attack on the dam, to unfold.

I disagree (of course) as soon as house sees (he monitors everything, always) the omerta's with guns on the strip he orders the Securitrons, white gloves society and the chairmen to (nullify) the Omerta's...

I've always thought the Omerta's plan was doomed to failure, even when I helped them :S

Also without the courier I'm not even 100% convinced a battle would even ensure.

Caesar is nothing more than a forgetful old idiot unless you 'fix' him..
He may well start calling Lanius his mother and cause a Legion civil war ahaha

The battle's going to happen, regardless. The only reason it "doesn't" until it does is because the main army, led by Lanius, hasn't arrived on the scene yet. Everyone is just scrambling to make sure all their cards are on the table by then.

No, Caesar is still in command, not Lanius. As is evidence by silus when you 'interrogate' him Caesar has a bad habit of not ordering his attacks on time... :S

It is faction psychology. No faction wants to risk everything in a battle for the dam till all the unknowns are dealth with. Courier is the one that deals with them.

Caesar is the one that makes the call to attack not the people under him. Caesar dies it will cause infighting. Or the battle may just be called off.