We all know what happens to Benny if he takes the Chip to the Fort himself

I was always under the assumption that the Legion would win by default.

Money's on the NCR.

Caesar's Legion.

We've had this discussion lots of times before and Legion always came out on top.
Without Courier Six House ain't got no one to do his work, he could get a new puppet but what that puppet would do is too much speculation to make valid facts.
NCR is shown constantly getting their ass kicked by Legion.
Dunno about Benny though.

Only reason these discussions go on is because some people can't accept lore and facts about Legion's progress and refuse to accept them being the victor.
And so a lot of NCR/House/YesMan supporters flat out ignore Legion lore or try to invalidate it by coming up with completely false accusations.

I have absolutely no interest in partaking in this discussion once again, just wanted to let everyone know what is going to happen.
And: Lore>Gameplay.

He implied they're not necessarily immune to surprise attacks, and he's right. The NCR knew CL would more than likely make an attempt on President Kimble's life, but with the Courier removed from the equation they're unable to prevent it. I'm pretty sure Kimble's head popping like a graqe while he was up on stage caught them by surprise. They furthermore didn't know Captain Curtis is a Legion spy, and he's in a position to wreak all sorts of havoc.

Just because they know an attack on the dam is inevitable, that doesn't mean they can predict the inciting incident that leads into the attack. It could very well come in the form of a diversion or an attack from within.

This and the embassy bombing. the legion has the ncr right where they want them.

Ave, true to Caesar.

A spy, or one guy killing the president is not the same as a whole army attacking a structure that you have been at for four years. There should be no suprise..... The right people with the right weapons should be in the right places 24/7, 365 days a year.

And yet they are, lol.

Go play the final battle for the Legion or the NCR. The Legion does a fantastic job of taking them by surprise, taking the fight to the enclosed parts of the dam and jumping out of doorways as troopers pass by.

Just because it'd be incredibly freaking stupid of the NCR to not consider that possibility doesn't mean it's impossible for the NCR to be that stupid. Based on how the battle went down, it looks like they are.

Because snipers can see underwater right?

NCR was only surprised by the fact that the Legion managed to sneak into the dam, through some clogged valves. They weren't surprised about the Legate's camp or the Legion's attack on other locations.

As for NCR rangers not being able to properly wield sniper rifles, most NPC's don't have the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats required to wield the weapons they use. Praetorians have 6 Strength and use Ballistic Fists, Centurions have 6 Strength and they use Anti-Materiel Rifles, Super Sledges and Thermic Lances. There are also a lot of NPC's with S.P.E.C.I.A.L. stats that don't make sense. For example, Boone, Lily, and Marcus all have 3 intelligence and Mr. House has an Endurance of 10.

CL, most of your NCR quests involve getting them out of the mess CL makes for them to hamper them when the time for the second battle comes.

*slide show music starts* At the end of the day the NCR pulls in a [censored]load of rangers. They assassinate Mr. House. Send a special squad of rangers to deal with the brotherhood. Hire mercenaries to take care of the fiends. Crush the legion under shear numbers and firepower. Bring in a few scoured artillery guns and demand a peaceful surrender of the boomers. The boomers refuse and the NCR sends in everything they've got. first recon pick off enemy commanders and people manning artillery. The NCR's big guns open up and use a creeping barrage to cover the main assault by NCR troopers. A ranger team moves through the deserted tunnels to cause panic. The boomers collapse.


Thats what happens when the courier dies.

The "right people." I see. Like Captain Curtis? Granted, he's not actually stationed at the dam, but you're giving no consideration whatsoever to the fact that whom the NCR regards as some of their "right people" could very well turn out to be carefully placed Legion spies capable of f**king up the NCR's preparations.

Furthemore, someone seemed to think Chief Hanlon was the "right person" to handle intelligence, and look at how that turned out.

That is why I say cl would win, because NCR are written to be super dumb.

Lol, what? What next, the gates of Oblivion open and the NCR conquers Cyrodil?

Oliver, Moore, and Hanlon are not cl. They are in change. Oliver mostly.


The trained snipers should be watching the other side of the river 24/7 365. CL should not be able to get into the water without NCR knowing. When defending something for four years there should be no way to get suprised what so ever. NCR is written dumb, and that is why they will lose without the courier.


Trooper have the sniper rifles on a cl playthrough. NCR rangers probably have 6strh 75 guns. Troopers do not....... Why are troopers armed with sniper rifles?

1. They don't have a [censored]laod of rangers.
2. How are they going to assassinate House? Only reason the player could was because House himself invited him/her to his casino.
3. Special squad of rangers? They needed a [censored]load of troopers and rangers to take them out at Helios One, where the BOS were in a disadvantage, since they are at an advantage in their bunker I doubt the NCR can take them out with some "special squad of rangers."
4. Hire mercs? What mercs? They never hired any mercs. They hired one guy which botched the job.
5. What!? The NCR doesn't have artillery guns, if they do then they should have been brought to the dam already. And snipers to pick off the Boomer commanders? How? The Boomers keep a constant watch at their borders, the second they see a 1st recon hat they'll blow it off the ugly rangers head.
6. What big guns!? They have none!
7. A ranger team? Listen, rangers are good, but they're not some kind of a super hero force that can take out anything with the blink of an eye. They're not http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Emporio_Ivankov for Bruce's sake.

8. Absolutely none of these things are suggested to happen and none of the lore suggests they have these super rangers to pull these things off.

Well nothing would've gotten done so they'd probably be in a stalemate for years after the end of New Vegas...

So the Germans must have been complete dumbasses for getting surprised by the Normandy invasion. The Russians must have been complete dumbasses for getting surprised by the Germans.



Why do Praetorians have ballistic fists? Why do Centurions have Anti-Materiel Rifles, Super Sledges, and Thermic Lances? They don't meet the strength requirement for any of those weapons.

I never said they were CL, but Hanlon did something of his own volition that no one saw coming though, didn't he? He deliberately undermined them because he no longer believed in the cause.




Even though I've been yammering on about inflitration, you seem hellbent on proceeding from the notion that all of these men are reliable. The troopers, the snipers, etc. How do you know that some of those snipers meant to keep watch and prevent the NCR from being taken by surprise aren't CL? Bear in mind that I'm not talking about how the conflict actually plays out, I'm talking about what's possible. You maintain that it's impossible for the NCR to be taken surprise. I disagree with you, and I furthermore think that if you were a military commander, you and the people under your command would be slaughtered wholesale because of your unwillingness to make allowances for any possibility. It's not wise to assume nothing can go wrong because you figure you have all the bases covered.

Like said
No courior
No anything
So NCR cant fix any of its problems
and House has no army upgraded robots
Thus The Bald Man wins every time
Which wont happen because he dies andd the other guy(name escapes me) wont go throuh with the attack with out the courior
In that no one wins

Caesar would win the battle. And after they've encroached enough into actual NCR territory (remember the mojave isn't NCR's, they are just as much an invading force as caesars legion) I'd suspect there would be another battle over the next closest resource. However that battle would rally the NCR into a fully mobilized army. Compare and contrast the USA's situation in the middle east with NCR and the Mojave. Its an unpopular war in which very little troops and supplies are being sent to in comparison to what the nation can actually accomplish if they put all effort behind it.Once Caesar's Legion starts beating down real NCR land I'd expect to see them rally and surprise us with superior numbers and technology. And that is the logical place I'd expect to see the war won, and most likely by the NCR although it will end up weakening them a fair amount.

edit: also Sahara0015 if you noticed almost no one is taking you seriously and giving you any attention in this thread and while I can only speak for myself, I know I'm not taking you serious because you can't spell simple words, and you are in an environment where all communications are written. If this discourse was in a spoken format I'm sure we'd pay more attention to you. Its cool if you can't spell, that's your own problem. Just don't expect other people to go out of their way to give you the time of day if you can't do something as simple as checking any word you are unsure of the spelling against a dictionary.

Caesar's Legion > Taliban America put all their effort into in 2001, within a matter of weeks they pushed the Taliban out of control, then the Taliban just has used Guerilla warfare for 10 years dragging it out.

Without the courier we don't know what would happen or how long it would take. Caesar could die and screw up the Legion a bit. Aaron Kimball would probally die, sending the NCR into KILL THE LEGION mode. House would be alive, but have no robot army, making his part useless.

It seem

I do agree with you in that the points he made aren't very good and i my self do think that the legion would have the upper hand.
But the NCR does hire mercs, they hired mercs to kill the mutants at Jacobs town, several mercs where hired to investigate vault 22 and mercs where hired to kill the fiend leaders

I apologize if you thought I was comparing Caesars Legion to the Taliban which I was not. I was comparing the USA's unpopular war to the NCR's unpopular war, doesn't matter who the antagonist is. these 2 wars share similarities I was trying to illustrate
1. they are both in foreign lands far from the homeland
2. they are both being managed on a lower capacity than the nation has available because of the unpopularity.
3. its been going on a very long time (and long term wars are hard to sustain)

I even remained vague enough to not pin down any specific US war in my comparison to try and reinforce that I'm just trying to get people to think about unpopular wars in foreign lands and how that affects an armies fighting abilities. The wars I was citing would be the Vietnam war, Iraq, and Afghanistan just to start with. all unpopular wars fought in a foreign land for a long period of time. that is the only comparison I am offering.

Edit: I'm also citing a war that doesn't even involve the taliban and I never even mentioned the taliban. that was you