I have to say as me as my self id go with Mr.House. but as the "character" id go Legion(evil) or Mr.House because i hate the NCR....

I haven't voted so far out of protest of the lack of Talon Company, but i will vote now, i guess.










Chairmen, ring-a-ding, baby.

So why does the US, the most Western of the Westerners, go in an establish democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan?

In respect to Iraq...

Simply because the USA needs allies in that region, allies it can deal with. The USA established the authoritarian government that it destroyed so that Iraq would have a dictator answerable to us, and not to the Soviets. When that dictator stopped answering to us, and threatened stability in the region, the US now tries to switch it up.

It's all the same as when the USA and the UK led a coup against a democratically elected prime minister in Iran, in 1953, when he presented a nationalistic and democratic government, and one which would not easily be controlled by the West.

It's a very complex situation. We can only hope that democracy is established sooner rather than later, and hopefully this time with the West's help.

Edit: and we should really stay on topic. if you wanna continue this we can do it by PM.

thats the problem here no one has the right to take Vegas from house he saved it to begin with. No one has the right to tell the ncr anything because the legion would have rolled houses mk1 securitrons. no one has the right to tell me to kill bos because bos are the only ones that don t ask me to kill anyone for them and they let me join. l dont like the legions ideas. yes man still runs houses program so i still can t do it my way with him. and the game gives u no chance to make house and the ncr see how much they could help each other. the ending is bad and i agree and disagree with house and the ncr but there is no way to keep them both or even yes man and the ncr unless im missing something. house and ncr would be best for vegas bos has no part in the ending and legion is bad for everyone they would be like steps back. so i guess im independent. that means the ending svcks

Seriously? No Enclave, gay.

Explain?

Sweden's monarch is a political figure, not inside our country but rather sort of a diplomatic relation's guy ... Also it's part of our tradition, 4 of july is bad to, people die and it cost's the goverment money but still you keep it. It's part of your identity.

Any deeper discussion of monarchs would certain break the no-real world politics rule, but I have to counter this one: monarch is way easier to get rid of compare to a dysfunctional democratic government, because there is a clear target.

And I am not sure how freedom and monarch go against each other.

At what cost though? They are already too thin and plenty of people are not happy with their eminent domain (without compensation) attitude which is borderline Organized Crime activity.

I think a mixture of NCR and House rule would be best; they would be forced to keep each other honest (to a degree).

Can we get back on topic here guys, why is massive scientific progress "meh", and the pacification of the entire Vegas area bad? The man is protecting what he owns and what he might as well have given his life for, all that money he earns isn't being spent on fancy yachts and swiss bank accounts, House can't improve his own life, he is building up cash reserves for the progress that is to come.

THIS!

Is one of the reasons I liked this game...Ethical choices, faction choices that you decide.

I think I like the idea of independent Vegas, whether it be the Courier or Mr. House.
The NCR is, as said by Marcus in Jacobstown, is expanding too fast. They are going to make the same mistakes as the Old World.

As for the Legion, ruling with fear and hate will lead to revolution and bloodshed within the faction. The only thing that is keeping the Legion together is Ceaser and Legate Lanius. Caeser has no heirs that we know of and after those two die a power struggle will begin.

The Brotherhood is also divided, yes all chapters have the same goal, but different means in so. For example The Brotherhood in New Vegas (before the encounter with the Courier) was collecting Old World tech and shut off and at war with everyone. While The Brotherhood in Fallout 3 are for the people while trying to scavenge tech. Here again we have different sects in a faction

Great Khans are more of a gang who want to run their drug business rather than rule the people.

And the Chairmen are not really trusted by the other families, which would cause conflict

As long as we don't name names (real world nations) we can talk about it.

Monarchs and Freedom don't mix. In our time most of the world's people have freedoms, and Monarch for the most part are just figureheads. Many countries that have a Monarch also have a parliamentary system.

Now go back 300 to a 1000 years back. Monarchs had total control over everyone in their kingdom, no parliamentry system, just the King. The average joe was not even considered a person. Only wealthy people under the king were and even then they had to do what the King wanted.

Monarchs considered themselves appointed by God. It took hundreds of years for people to get ride of their Monarchs or to make them useless figureheads. Main reason why people stared gaining power over their kings was thanks to the Black Death. It killed millions of people and in the end there weren't as meany people. People became less disposable. Technology advanced and less people were needed for farming. So all these uneducated people with nothing to do, ended up learning and learning lead to rebellion. Anyways this is an over simplification.

My point is in a Fallout World a Monarch most likley would be someone that sees themselves appointed by God and would be in total control. That type of system does not sit well with me. I like Democracy, thats why I support the NCR.

True, Kings are a single targer but if that king has armies and has no problem killing their own people then getting ride of them is not so easy.

I vote for Legion, their methods are cruel, but their motives are pure. They simply want to end corruption, which sounds okay to me. Sure they could take a better approach, but still. NCR does the right thing for the wrong reason, Legion does the wrong thing for the right reason, I give credit to the one that's truly intends for good. Misguided, but pure.

As Ninjajoe175 said; "Caeser has no heirs that we know of and after those two die a power struggle will begin." what if the courier is a girl and sides with them? then he can get some delicious courier on the side.... jk i know what happens when you side with the Legion as a girl...only thing you get is.....*you have to play to find out*

Yes and We(U.S.) just had to get involved. we are just the ones to get up in other countries buissness and affairs.

Independent.
While I agree with different aspects of each group, I can't say there's one i really side with. But if I had to, it would be Mr. House for sure.

(Also, I wish you could help out the kings in freeside and have them be the new rulers, they're chill)

That would go against everything they stand for.

More Kings quests would be welcome though. Still have my fingers crossed for the upcoming Kings DLC in which they make their epic pilgrimage to Graceland. :disguise:

I'm an independant. Mostly because the alternatives all really, really svck.

-Legion: While they are the kind of strong willed, self controlled people you would want to restore order, the fact is is that they are facists. They kill or enslave anyone who doesn't follow their leadership. Not to mention they are into slavery, which is just not okay. This is where being a pragmatist is no good,.Yes the Legion gets the job done, but the crimes they commit are attrocious (I think I forgot to mention [censored]) and ultimately that is not who you want to lead you.

-NCR: They are basically the opposite of the Legion. Well meaning, and they have humanitarian goals, but are ultimatly incompitant. They've been stopped by a bunch of lunatics who use knives, while they have guns, and artillery. In addition they can't even secure the Mojave Watseland, not just against the Legion, but against anyone, the whole region is littered with ghost towns, and refugee camps becuase the NCR can't get their [censored] together long enough to really bring aid to the people.

-Mr. House: If I couldn't be independant I would go with House. He has the drive and commitment to change the wasteland, not just control it. The key issue with House is that he lacks the trust of the people and this will eventually lead to his demise. I have to admit the only reason I killed House the first time through was because I just wanted to see what the hell was the big secret. Is he a ghoul? An Alien? Some sort of immortal cannibal hell bent on eating our ears? And lastly, even though House has done some great things for Vegas, I don't see him going out of his way to help the surounding communities, as long as people can flock from the NCR he'll be content.

-BoS: The Brotherhood of Steel have the potential for greatness, but they are xenophobic, and sheltered. If they could allow new memebers and accept the assistance of others, they could not only control Vegas and the Mojave, but mostl likely carve out a decent sized empire for themselves. Instead they hide down in their bunker, hoping everyone else will die of old age... or something. I'm not really sure what the long term goal for the BoS is.

Khans and Chairmen: These two are both basically tribals. Not that there's anything wrong with tribals, but they have a fundemental flaw: they like to go to war with other tribes. This is costly and a pain in the ass for people who are just trying to eek out a living.

Yeah, The U.S. never knows when to not get involved, I mean really... the nerve of some people!

Now you are making a wild assumption. If history tells us anything, it is monarchs doesn't have full loyalty from their army if they are doing such a bad job.

Sure back in the days monarchs are appoint by God and such, but does it really stop people revolting or any coups if they are bad at it? No. As for their superiority or "not treated like human", it is the class system, not equal to monarch rule, parliamentary or not.

And a small correction, the Black Plague claimed all, noble or peasants, while the total population decrease, the ratio between them remain more or less the same.

A system shouldn't be the maker of the government, but the government itself. True the democrat base one is more resilient, but it doesn't mean it is better government hands down.

NCR is clearly an example of dysfunctional democrat, for that, it loss my vote.

Everything falls. Monarchs normally fall due to their armies turing on them and history shows that often the new guy is just like the old guy. Point is they have more power over your life then someone that is elected. If thing does not want you to have rights you don't get rights. He wants to kill you he will have you killed. Not a damn thing the average person can do. If a leader gets an army of people that are like minded to run things chances are he will be in power for a long time. If your generals are happy by killing and enslaving then you are going to let them do just that. Normally Monarchs fall when they leave themselfs weak or do something to upset their generals. Or an outside power is supporting your enemies.

Only way to remove a Monarch/dictator that is willing to kill its own people is by war. In a democracy if someone is a bad leader you can just vote them out or wait for the term limit to be up. Elected leaders arn't about to go killing their own people. NCR has its problems but they have not gone massacring its own people.

Caesars Legion and Mr. House, more so the Legion then House. [censored] the NCR. They are nothing but power hungry bastards who care only about making themselves rich and powerful. Caesars Legion wants to bring purity and justice to the Wasteland, at least they are honest about there brutality and only do it so that they can bring purity and justice to the Wasteland quicker.

Well I try to play the goodboy and NCR plays by the rules. I can shoot anything and they explode after 4 rounds or hits. I do the Mr. House thing too.
Troy Lawson

You have to remember, the terms "purity" and "justice" are very presumable words... It all depends on the personal definition, such as "to kill a man who killed an other" is justice to some but others it is "Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
There is no "right". That terms is used only to justify an action of a group and villainize another.
Another example is: The Legion uses the crucifixion as a form of punishment, that seems barbaric to some, but to others "They crossed me, they should have known I'd CROSS them....YEEEEAAAAAA*" mentality
Personally I'm all for independence as stated earlier... The "each to his own" but if others want to care for others let them, but leave me alone if I say no.


*Please view
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rD4Paq0zE

Oh I agree completely. Justice and purity are what you believe they are, in my mind the Legion may have extreme methods but they thing is they work. And you don't have to worry about me barking at you for disagreeing with me, if you respect my opinion I will respect yours .