And your attempt of oppression against people like myself (freedom for self) and you piss them off... :shocking: :flamethrower: :gun: and Caeser will be all like :banghead:

Sorry but I don't really understand what you said?

No, if you take away freedom through force you will get it through people's heads that fighting will get you killed.

Thats terrilbe though. I would rather live in a world like America than some place like Iran.

sorry
Fighting people who do not wish to be controlled will fight you to the death... Kinda like Vietnam. And we all know Ceaser has a temper...

Ah I understand now.
---------
Unrelated to the above part

The NCR may have brought safety to certain parts of California and may have civilized citizens and members but they are sneaky power hungry corrupt bastards. Sure the Legion army may not be so pure but they don’t hide there bad side, the embrace it and use it there advantage. The Legion kill those who go against there rules and those who oppose them, and guess what, the NCR does the same (when it comes to those who oppose them). Sure Caesars Legion may do it in a brutal and viscous way but that is to send a message. As for slavery its for good reason, the Legion doesn’t want to do “housework”, they focus on there military and get the slaves to do the rest of the stuff. The NCR has there troopers cleaning up after themselves and all that stuff while Caesars Legion gets slaves to do it, sure they may get over worked but who cares, your probably a slave because you opposed them anyways.

The NCR only has a small amount of land in California, Caesars Legion has four states, why is that? Because they are doing things the right way. They lay the rules down and if you break them you die. Simple as that. Follow the rules and you will have a safe and happy life, unless you are a slave. But remember this, we have only seen the Legion at war, we haven’t seen there cities and I doubt the Legion is just slaves and military, there are more than likely Legion citizens. And if your smart you would be one instead of a NCR citizen, at least you don’t have to deal with a corrupt government who just wants your money.

As someone who lived in the Middle East, outskirts of Iran and Bahrain, I am going to say that the world tries to force that their way of living is more correct, when no one can be.

The places i've for lived many years of my life enforce the law, they take away some freedom' sure, but what people don't realize is that with more freedom, more crime will take place.
Less freedom, less crime.

My guess is that you've never left America so I have to say this; How can you say you don't want something if you've never been in a place that's different? How can you not want something you've never experienced firsthand?

Yet there is unrest in the Legion, those in charge fear someone

Please, tell me where the unrest is inside the Legion, I have yet to see some.

The only thing pointing to that are the NCR, and that is most likely Propaganda.

Well the dev's rumored about the "burned man" in a DLD
so the slaves...They are the unrest with the continued rumors

I think people are too comfortable to see Legion as good.
Like, "oh but I wouldn't want to live under their rule cause it would be horrible and I like my freedom."
Well, yeah it would be horrible for a lot of people.
But I see past that, screw comfort, oh you don't like being a slave? So what, you are, now deal with it.
What Legion is trying to accomplish will take a lot of decades if not a century or two, so I would not live to see their goal accomplished.
But even so I see past my comfort.
Of course NCR and House would be better to live under, there you have freedom to do almost whatever you want to.
But I consider it selfish to prioritize my comfort instead of the future.
So in a nutshell, Legion for me isn't about the "now", it's about the future, I won't live to see it, will die of old age or accident or eaten or killed.
But knowing that the world will finally rebuild itself is enough for me.
Screw what "I" want, screw what is comfortable to "me" and most definitely screw an 8 year old girl that's a slave, "we" don't matter, the future is what matters.
We are but pawns in a grander scheme, but without someone to uphold the rules the pawns will be in the hands of children that's toying around with them with no knowledge of what the game actually is.
And if I were to become a citizen, slave or legionnaire I would gladly take any role and help Legion in their cause.
Since House can only envision the future for Vegas I cannot support him, and since NCR cares about money, land and power I cannot support them either.
Legion aren't pretty, they're pretty evil, but at least they're doing something for the world, at least they have a greater goal than their own selfish comfort.

So to summarize: Screw selfish desires and comfort, what matters is the future for everyone in the wasteland. Can NCR provide this? No, they cannot, they don't care about humanity or people at all, all they care about is their own greed and prosperity, during their conquest for more wealth people manage to get integrated into the NCR, but what about the rest? If there is a tribe which agriculture is failing shouldn't NCR help them? Yes, they should. Will they? No, they won't.
And is their goal to help people? Is their goal to expand their nation and bring civilization to everyone? It is not.


(Gonna clean this post up a little later.)

Spreading rumors isn't unrest, that's just what people do.

But yes, I know that the Burned Man is rumored, and it's all but proven that he will be in a DLC.

:thumbsup: You good sir should become a politican

but if you listen to the tone of the voice actor...It isn't "ha, silly rumors" it's "This is hope, and it needs to stop!"

The tone sound the same with every bit of dialouge coming from the soldiers, but I get what you mean.

Unrest will always exist in a minor or major way, but we have no way to see which it is for the Legion.

I understand what you are saying
but
it leaves room for potential doubt

I suppose, but oh well.

Hopefully Obsidian or whoever reuses CL will adress that issue.

So just to clarify, are you agreeing with the OP in that Legion slaves are better off because they're protected from "turning to the dark side" (I assume you mean protecting them from being corrupted by whatever).

The Legion offers nothing but stability. It offers no chance of progress for humanity as their oppression cracks down on science, medicine, and the like. Not only do they not allow progress, when conquering civilized and established settlements and nations like Vegas and the NCR they are in fact "de-civilizing" the population.

If you could go back in time and do it, would you stop the humanist and enlightenment movements from happening? Why not have the Dark Ages forever, as long as some state controlled the population with an iron fist and kept the peace.

You can argue that the Legion was a positive when the past was just warring slavers and raiders controlling the land, but to say that the Legion would be an improvement in Vegas or California is a huge stretch. Unless one was just into that whole slavery and Dark Age thing.

I thought the point of Legion was to start anew. :shrug:
What good is it to live like leeches off of the old world when what the world really needs is to reset?
What if the old world's tech rusts and breaks down? What then?
Humanity can't just pick up where the old world left off.
We need a new beginning, we need to start anew, that is what Legion is doing.
And that is progress in it's own way.

Except that the Legion requires complete adherence to their ideals: slavery is a part of life, medicine is bad, women are inferior, science and technology is bad. So if the Legion were to take total control, all of those movements in human history would have to be realized again. Emancipation, women's rights, rationalism, humanism, the enlightenment, etc etc. Hell, even the most ancient and basic of the peoples in human history hadn't abhorred scientific progress, taking up new ideas. The Legion is unique in that it denies natural human innovation and it seeks to reject the knowledge already accessible to its people.

Some humans have already "started anew." The NCR didn't just spring up as a functional republic and empire, it grew, and it expanded. It is different, however, in that its people had access to, and accepted humanist and liberal ideas that took thousands of years for humanity to achieve in the first place in its history. With that knowledge why reject it and choose to regress, to have to wait even longer for these movements and ideas to be produced again?

This an infinite amount of times x100000! :clap:

EDIT: Couldn't have put it any better, this is exactly why I support the Legion over the NCR, they care about a greater future. I am saving this speech.

Ok if CL is for the future... Who will rule after he is dead (assuming you saved him) and Lanius is dead?

Whoever Lanius puts up as Legate.

Clarify for me what this ultimate goal is? Only thing that I can think of is Caesar's Pax Romana, which would be nothing more than long-term stability under a totalitarian, imperial, slave-driven government that cracks down on medicinal and scientific progress and innovation - thus stagnating the country until it falls or it's ideals are significantly amended.

But wouldn't there be a power struggle? The power aspect of things, the "He is not worthy, I AM WORTHY" thinking.
That's why I am for independence, if I die, the world moves on. If it's free vegas deal, then I have yes man to follow my example of rule