why and how do they not fit?

ive honestly been looking for a logical answer to this for some time..

Not really the point. Point being that DLC or side quest cannot be canon as it does not applies for all players.


Wasn't really official, mang, the DLC and canon and all.

Can we call it semi-canon then? As some find it canon and some don't.

the crashed ship in F3 isnt a random encounter. it is there every time, on every copy of the game, no matter how you build your player.


the point of the enclave is that the storyline actually changed, even if slightly between teh first two games. but something that fits is called "non cannon"-it illustrates how ridiculous the notion that they cant be there because of the first two games.. which were not as iron clad with canon and lore as people would lead you to believe.

roswell. let me ask.. if roswell occourances arent real, as the govt claims.. it would have to be the imagination of people that made it up.. imaginations revolving around the fact that there were things like V2 rockets, which were initially thought of for space exporation, and not use in ICBMs-which they became. it all comes back to sociopolitical conditions. which those movies showcased... as read again.. the moster in forbidden planet was an amalgum of the things that people do wrong-the sociopolitical rammifications of those times.. the alien is a metaphor.

i will give you that aliens arent a crusial component of fallout, as it mostly deals with mans struggle to survive..
but it doesnt mean they dont belong there as something past ranom encounters/eggs.

Its canon as to what the player say it is, which is anything to what happens to them and how they finish all the side quest / DLC. Its Official Canon as to when it have to applies to all players i.e. Main Quest.

stop interchanging the alien crash site from F3 with the MZ DLC..

even if there were no DLC, the alien would be cannon as it is in the wastes

Randomness handle quite differently Fallout 3, I am aware of that. I see its a What the heck moment if they ever across such ruin the first time they play it.


A change that would make sense and actually carry on a decent story. They did it quite well on how they presented the Enclave in Fallout 2.


Again, the event of Roswell give an idea on how fiction writer write on. Alien popularity went up on that event, ever if they believe it or not. While at the same time, I would guess that space exploration was still a dream as to race up in space with USA and USSR as competitors.

And again, I am aware of such metaphor that alien mean bad guys, whether or not on how they display to whom they desire.


They could be fragment of imagination for what they are worth. Exist, they are, but not to a point it is that serious.


It cannot be help. Alien in Fallout will lead to players saying its true because of some DLC that the dev made. I rather jsut destory the DLC idea of canon before anything else is said.

dude. seriously, enough about the DLC. i dunno how many ways i can say it. drop talking about the eggs, random encounters and the DLC.. they heve no place in this thread.

im talking about the crashed ship in F3 (not the random encounters in 1 and 2).... it is not a random encounter. i repeat, not! te4hre are random encounters in fallout 3 that are based off of skill and luck and plain randomness.. but it is always there for everyone who plays the game-every single time.;... theres nothing random about it. its there just as clear as megaton, or vault 101. you dont need a special skill to find it.. or to have high luck.. or spend money to see. it is there, deal with that.

aliens do not metaphorically represent "the bad guys" in the movie forbiden planet. they metiphorically represent the evil parts of all of mankind-mans struggle.. which is soooo fallout.

Just pointing out its almost impossible to discuss the existence of an idea of Aliens without these said event popping up here and there.

Its not random, but special. Like I said before, it can be a What The Heck Moment if ever they never been across to the ruin before.

And look where this evil take us now. In a way, still mean along the line of bad guys as their existence.

which is exactly why they dont need mentioning, they get plenty of conversation, but dont apply to this conversation and throwing them out in every post confuses the points that are being made in this thread... look at the majority of the people replying in this thread.. theyre quote replying you talking about them, which is getting away from the point..



and people would think a giant radscorpions gouhls and supermutants were perfectly normal if they hadnt seen them before?
yes, its something that isnt common place. that doesnt mean its a random encounter-in the sense of random encounters in games. its very much a part of the backdrop in this instalment.

jsut so we are clear, its not as much the personification of "bad" as it is the intrinsic quality of "bad" that ihnabits mankind.
its not merely that they were a part of 50's culture. but why they were a part of that culture.. the same things that shaped the plots in these movies shaped the events of fallout. communistic threats. bomb threats. our own knowledge and how we apply it to science as a threat. this was real life and it bled into the culture that fallout is based on.

not just alien movies.. but any of the 50's monster movies. i mentioned the movie "them!"
this was a movie that was to show us how our actions in scientific progress had ramifications.. not as much "Us Vs monsters".. but "Us Vs our own scientific abhorations".. Forbidden planet is the exact same, only its how our evil or rather dark tendancies endangered us.

now.. the ants from "them" are nodded at as the ants in the grayditch quest "those" Would you consider them to be out of canon? because in 50's culture those ants and aliens were metaphors for the same things. therefore, if betsoft wants to add aliens into the mix, it deosnt go against the fallout universe..

i know a lot of you want to keep the struggle in the fallout universe as mankind trying to survive..
and thats fine.. i can respect that. i doubt that betsoft is going to make aliens the main antagonists in the next game.. they simply exist much the same as redscoprions, or raiders.. another type of character

Then again, even if I did not response to this thread, I would predict that along the line, it would be like this:



I like to be direct and foreshadow the post so I can destroying any means of the dialogue I just set up above.

Quite so, but not to a point where 100% of 50s Fiction is added in into Fallout. Surprising enough, they made it seem that USSR faded away with China being the Powerhouse against the US.

As for Ant, still looking idea that nuclear == making animal bigger, I was not surprise by giant ants. Thankfully, they are weak or I would never able to get out of the first building alive in Fallout 2.

yes, people would and will still bring them up. and i would ask them not to include those as arguing points as well.

100% of 50's culture isnt added into fallout, true.. look. heres an anology for you......

i think sushi tastes good (50's culture in fallout).. i havent tried all of it (all of 50's culture isnt currently in fallout games)..
does that mean only sushi ive tried is actually sushi?(only what has been presented as "serious" fallout material previously can ever be considered canon?)

or can i try new sushi and find that its not only sushi, but good sushi?(can new 50's culture references be added?)

Then good luck on saying that of the potential poster in the future. I just here to destroy that anology before it spread otherwise.


I bet my money that sushi is made of ignana. : P

i will continue to say it, too..

the reason those things are repeated so often is because thats the only possible explaination that anyone who says that cant be part of canon can come up with.. and its a weak explaination at that.

i thought most people that were PC gamers were pretty hip to logic, which is all i was trying to do here.
have a logical conversation with points and counter points.. cause if aleins cant be part of the fallout universe, i would really like to know why.

instead its always circular thinking that comes back to the eggs/randoms, which is sadcause they dont do anything for either side.

Let me summarize this argument for you two... or at least show where you two are coming from.

Kickstand27- Aliens can be in FO because they were used, during the 1950's, as social metaphors for the superiority of American and the danger of Socialism. As FO is based, at least partially, on ideals and views that pervaded the 1950's, the Aliens can play an important storytelling component.

Qawsed Asap- Aliens should not canon for FO. FO is about the dangers and survival in a post-apocalyptic world caused by human instinct. Adding extraterrestrials into the mix gives nothing to the story, and only Bethesda has taken the Alien concept to canonicity. The original designers never meant aliens to be canon, only as a nod to the pervasive "B" movies of the 1950s.

The two of you refuse to view things any differently, or cede any ground. So I'm gonna say this, at risk of this post being edited or deleted; shut up. Your discussion is borderline flaming, and it can only degrade from this point. If you really want this thread to keep going, then drop the subject. The route your discussion is taking right now will eventually attract the Moderaters, and they may either cause massive editing to the thread or close it completely.

i am not trying to flame anyone, but dont think thats a good summary of what i said at all.

i didnt say anyting about american supiriority..
its really quite the contrary-arogance in science can have ramifications.
people were even subonciously taught to fear communism.
being bombed could happen any day.

they dont need to play an imprtant storytelling componant anymore than molerats play an important storytelling role.
theyre just there, or at least have the ability to be without it being called into question.

if the mods close this thread, i will start another one. all i am trying to do is make people think-myself included.

as ive said a couple times..
i would enjoy a good set of counterpoints and not "they werent to be taken seriously in the first two"

and trust, i have tried to look at it from the other side..
lets see if i get it right
"wannamingos arent aliens" check
"the aliens in fallout one and two are easter eggs" check
"fallout needs to be about the plight of human survival after armadeddon" check
"the original devs didnt include aliens that were to be taken seriously" check
let me knwo if i have left anything out inall honesty, id like to know what everyone else is seeing that im not.
and i dont disagree with those statements at all.
but i dont think those statements mean that aliens cant exist legitimately.

this is why ive gone so far as to make the real world connection between monsters and aliens and why they were part of pop culture and how they fit in.. i am trying to see it from a lot of different points.

they are officially canon now, given that they are in the game.. so i dont really need to prove anything..
this particular forum is labeled as a place where we can discuss this though and in a multitude of other forums on this board, youve got people complaining about aliens not being canon-is there a better place to ask "why?"

i have no hard feelings towards Asap, at all-at least he was willing to talk about it.

Actually, I based on the fact that before the DLC was made, I did not care for aliens. What Beth made (the DLC, of course) is not automatically made into canon. Might be to the players that love to play that DLC, but not to a point its official.

If ya say please, I might go away. :angel:

But it is not that easy, sadly. Way ya posted, it seem I touch a nerve. Anywho, I was quite done in my last post before ya post.

Anyways, have a good day, mkay.

Heh, not so much touched a nerve as me realizing "Hey, 90% of the posts on the second page of the thread are from the OP and this one guy... and it looks to be a simmering sem-argument. Probably should say something before it erupts and the moderators come running in and close this thread."

Ahh yes I remeber when I was playing fallout 3 when that quest part popped up. I laughed and laughed. Cause I've seen the original movies ''Them''. Which is one reason I'm so interested in the fallout universe with all it's 50s theme and parodies.

it's not like they are suddenly going to change the entire canonical storyline just because they added a faux-serious dlc about classic '50's aliens
you killed them in the end anyway so it probably aint gonna be a "big thing" in any other games

of course they arent going to change them to a main protagonist..

my point still remains that there is room for them in the FO universe as much as rad-ants, radroaches, morlerats or or any other creattures that were a movie-medium metaphor for the sign of the times.

I'm of the opinion that there's nothing that says aliens couldn't exist, but they just don't fit - not in the magnitude they're presented in MZ (an out of setting element, forcefully crammed in). They are a cheap and uninteresting trick that present a lack of imagination settingwise since the setting offers so many possibilities to expand otherwise. They are an overused cliche in games today and I would be happy if Fallout franchise would stay away from them in the future. No matter how much of 50's popculture they were, you got consider the setting. Not everything thats part of 50's popculture, fits. Imo.

Indeed, also just look at the history of how they are portrayed in the games. They only appear as jokes or easter eggs. To me that says that in the FO universe proper they don't exist.

I rather doubt they would make Aliens as "on the spotlight" as they did in Zeta again. They are not that significant in the Fallout Universe, afterall. And again, ya still seeing this as a "All-50s Movies" == Must be in Fallout and must be true.

Again, im not suggesting they do portray them as "on the spotlight". Rather i am only saying they have a place. I dont remember any molerats stealing the spotlight.. there was one quest that involved them directly, other than that theyre just creatures that exist in the universe. MZ may have had moer content, but its not part of the ML-they arent central to the plot.

Its not "all 50's movies", either. I dont expect to see Gene Kelley to be singing in the streets twirling around a streetlamp..
there is a distictiion.

The Giant ants in "them" the invader from "the day the earth stood still" the pod people from "invasion of the body snathcers" the advanced ancient aliens in "forbidden planet"
Theyre all ellegories spawned from the fear and wonderment of the nuclear age mixed in with the threat of communism- which are cornerstones of the fallout universe..
There is not only a common thread betoween them, but in most cases x=y=z; they all stand for the same socio-political commentary.

and again.. they have been added. so theyre in the universe whether you like it or not.. im just trying to get you all to take your FO 1 & 2 easter egg blinders off and see:
1)the actual reason why any of the radcreatures or robots are there to begin with
2)how aliens are the exact same thing, in a different package