But the difference between the two is almost entirely subjective, revolving around the person acting as arbiter.



Well, odds are the one up in your face screaming would be drowning out any meek sounds made by the polite, quiet one. There's a reason for sayings like "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." Of course depending on where you are, in some places there's also "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Bottom line- the forum's got rules, and I've no problem with any complaint that doesn't run afoul of them. :shrug:

If you control a tea factory and your customers are screaming that they don't like a change you made, are you just going to ignore them and leave it?

Critisism is constructive, end of thread.

rightest thing I've seen all thread

whoa, they said they weren't adding capes... when? Anyone can confirm if this is true.

we are stuck with skyrim for at least 5 years and probably longer since games take more and more time to make. i DO NOT want to have to deal with another oblivion for the next several years. so far it looks like they arent repeating the big mistakes that oblivion did (cept a couple like cheating fast travel etc) and ive been impressed with the graphics.

complaint threads keep the pressure on them. as long as they are kept civil and not insulting to the developers i dont see why its an issue. if you want threads that say nothing but positive stuff all the time go to the microsoft LIVE forums or the bioware forums.

Paying customers have the right to tell the developers what they would like changing about the game ( although some of them verge on the ridiculous) I think as soon as we get out of this mentality that more is better, we'll start to enjoy the game for what it is, a game.

I don't think that many people would argue the difference between these two sentences...

"I think capes should be added to Skyrim because they would add a great deal of immersion for many types of characters. I would be pretty disappointed if they weren't in the game because I think a lot of Mage players would love to wear capes with enchantments on them."

"If they don't add capes then Skyrim will svck! Capes were in Morrowind so why the hell wouldn't they be in Skyrim! They took them out of Oblivion and Oblivion svcked! So put them in Skyrim or I won't buy it!"

Sure they could both be call critical, but I wouldn't call the second sentence very constructive or helpful.

The screaming person may get noticed quicker, but they are often ignored or asked to leave. If everyone posted in a calm and rational manner, explaining why capes would be a great feature, I think Bethesda would take that into consideration. I don't think they will pay much attention to the guy complaining mindlessly about every little thing. They will notice them for all the wrong reasons.

You make a valid point though. If someone isn't breaking the forum rules then I suppose there's nothing I can do about it. I just feel that it would be far more productive to "discuses" issues, rather than constantly complain about them. Especially when the topic is something like spears and capes.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think if Bethesda saw a large thread discussing why spears would be a great idea, and most people agreed, they'd take notice.

If they saw multiple threads all complaining about Skyrim not having spears, but not even mentioning why it should have spears... I don't think they'll pay much attention to them.

Just my thoughts, I could be wrong.

I dare you to find one decently active public forum on the internet that doesn't have at least some complaining or flaming or raging. You likely wont find one, especially when it has to do with video games.

While I think the right type of criticism is helpful, I also think that there are a whole lot of complaints and criticisms about the game that are garbage, but when your on a public message forum you get the bad along with the good.

My feeling is that if it's repeated often enough, it's no longer trivial.

It's simply a poor choice for any developer to ignore suggestions or requests from even a small percentage of the community, as long as they are consistently asked for and also do not detract from the game as it is designed.

no matter how well Bethesda does, there will always be someone that complains about something. They could make a game that puts in more content then a PC could hold, but someone somewhere will say something stupid like "well there wasn't this in there. that was gay" It's annoying.... SEE!?! I just did it.... not about the game, but you get the idea.

I agree with the OP. Valid criticism and asking/debating content is of course a good thing, it's partly what these forums are for. But there does seem to be too much complaint (I read one guy who complained about Skyrim being "bland and generic" after seeing the announcement trailer...).

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170767-new-weapon-flails/ is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. There's no demanding that Flails be added to the game or the game will svck. Just questioning if the community would like this feature and discussing why it would be a nice feature. :celebration:

Then you see a bunch of threads complaining about the river textures. The game is 8 months away, with plenty of time left to spruce up the textures. What does complaining about the water textures do to help the game? That's not the issue though. People complain about the textures, but then fail to offer any new ideas on how to make it better. There's no recommendations on how the water could look better, just complaints that it doesn't look good enough. Is that really ok?

I dont think any of the poll options really work for me.

I think that some complaints are justified, but people do have to consider that if anything gets added, its usually at the expense of something else within the same department. I also dislike the constant demand for options. It seems like an easy thing to request, but theres all sorts of ramifications that tend to be forgotten, not to mention the additional work involved.

While I dont agree with a lot of the criticisms, I guess people need to vent.

Wait, capes were in Morrowind? I've been playing that game for a long time, and I don't remember a single cape that wasn't added by a mod. Did I miss something?

I couldn't tell you for sure if they were in Morrowind without mods, but I was just using that as an example of nonconstructive complaining.

Most people have something to complain about,
last time I checked this was a forum where you could state your opinion.

Everyone has a right to complain if they want to, and everyone has a right to disagree, or ignore completely. Personally, I think Beth give you more game than most, by a good margin, but forums are there for discussion, and that usually means more than one viewpoint being presented. I don't give a damn about spears, arbalests or shirts under armour, but I would never dream of expecting someone who does want them to shut up and put up.

I'm starting to hate the whole atmosphere of "Don't make feature suggestions, because that'll take away time from adding content and AI" for a few reasons. We aren't making the game, Bethesda can manage their own time. If they don't think they can do something in time they won't do it, otherwise they will. We don't have to tell them what they can and can't manage, and also, that any sort of complaint is taken as a personal attack. Guess what - I love TES, but it's not perfect. If we tell everybody it's perfect nothing bad will get better, if we tell people it's not perfect there's a chance it will. Constructive criticism is constructive, but blind praise gets you nowhere.

I always think it's silly to complain about a game that hasn't even been released yet.

Speculating's fine, as always, but I'm holding any definitive judgments until after I get my hands on the thing in November. (And let's face it, it's probably going to be an amazing game even if it's got a few quirks)

Why? After the game is released it's done. Complaining before it's released is the only time serious changes can actually be made.

And what of blind criticism?

No it isn't, for the simple fact that if Bethesda doesn't want to bring back a feature that they were apparently previously plenty capable of implementing, or if people want a new feature introduced Bethesda won't listen to them.

Feedback on these forums are unfortunately quite a pointless exercise since due to the sheer volume of posts that are posted in the months leading up to the release of the game mean that developers aren't able to read many of the posts, and usually don't bother since they spend all their time in the CS (or CK as it is called now).

Even the community managers have their time full working with the director of marketing to plan all their advertising activities instead of reading the forums (how sad would it be having to tell your friends at school that your dad reads forums for his job). Even when they are able to see an idea the most they can do is pass it on to whatever team is responsible for that particular part of design, and if that team doesn't like it it won't go in.

Bethesda has a general tendency to listen to the most err. mainstreamish of its customers in making changes (which only occur in new iterations of the game, or a DLC if it is particularly important). E.g supposed complaints about not being able to find a Dwemer puzzle box in Morrowind resulted in a green pizza slice leading us right up to the hidden box, and a popup window that popped up as soon as we stood next to the hidden box telling us that we were next to the hidden box and should open the hidden box for Oblivion. Complaints that were rightly made about the green pizza slice (we didn't know about the popup window or that would have been howled at) before Oblivion was released were ignored, and only fixed in Bethesda's next game Fallout 3 - by making the pizza slice much less noticeable and removing the popup window. If Bethesda listened to its fans on this forum (and others) then they wouldn't have made that poor design decision in the first place. But they didn't listen no matter how well argued the point any way.

So with this in mind why should people bother writing coherent complaints or suggestions when they will all have the same zero effect. If people wish to rant their anger about a feature that Bethesda previously was able to implement and then ditched for...a reason that was never properly explained other than 'we didn't think we needed it' then let them. I don't see why you should worry whether they are writing a well argued point or just registering an angry complaint.

People said 'why are you complaining about Oblivion before the game is even released' and look at all the poor design decisions that went into that game.

Those are my thoughts.



Bethesda doesn't take constructive criticism onboard. It stems from their marketing principle that 'we only show people things when they are ready' meaning that they have been locked in and won't change. All of our suggestions and criticism is pointless at the moment.

Believe it or not, there are many, many games that I'm looking forward to a lot less than Skyrim. Games with features announced that make no sense, that I think are stupid, that don't interest me.

Thing is, I don't hang out on their forums and criticize tiny details.

That people obsess so much about small-ish issues with Skyrim is because they love the series so much, and want the next installment to be perfect. We will all be playing this game for hundreds of hours, after all.

One thing that comes up a lot and gets on my nerves is along the lines of "why do you care so much? Enjoy it for what it is, it's just a GAME!"

This is just selling the medium short. Would you ever say "who cares if the characters make no sense? It's just a BOOK!" or "why bother getting the drum sound right? It's just a ROCK ALBUM!"

I think that Skyrim has a reasonable chance of being my personal favourite game ever. I would like this to happen. Therefore, I will nitpick.

I suppose you have a point. However, if being constructive and just complaining on a whim have the same effect, I don't see why someone would bother being critical of the game at all.

If that really is the case, then I think being coherent and thoughtful when criticizing or discussion things you'd like to see in Skyrim, is just respectful for not only Bethesda, but also the other members of this community.

You're right though. I could just ignore the members who seem to just be negative for the sake of it... I guess it just irks me when I see someone ignoring all the effort Bethesda puts into their games, just because they are never satisfied until the game is exactly how they want it. Just think of all the other developers that give us 5 hours of gameplay with no replay value and compare it to the hours of entertainment Bethesda's games carry. Now realize that these products are sold at the same price. It just seems ridiculous to complain about not having spears with all the other content they offer. It's like someone giving you $1,000,000 but you complain that they didn't give you $1,000,001.

Again, I'm talking about pure complaining... Not constructively discussing what features would be great for Skyrim. Like I said, it's very anti-productive when people criticize the game for whatever reason, yet they don't offer any reasoning or solutions. They just complain.

"I don't like this movie."

"Why?"

"Because, I don't."

"Well how could they make it better?"

"I don't know but I don't like it until they do."

See what I mean? In order to address an issue, first you need to give reasons as to why it's an issue, then if you really want to be productive, give solutions for the issue in a constructive manner. Not just, "Put it in the game". You have to consider that Bethesda doesn't have an infinite amount of time to make this game. They would need better reasoning to put spears in the game than just "I want them and the game will svck without them". I'm sure they'd love to put them in the game if they had the time, but it's also possible that they would cause unbalance in the game. I don't think Bethesda is not including them in the game just to spite their fans... If people were constructive with their arguments to put spears in the game I think Bethesda would be much more likely to reconsider their decision.

I digress... I'll just ignore the nonconstructive complaints as best I can and hope that more and more people will want to discuss Skyrim's features and content in a more intelligible manner. If Bethesda gives their fans spears because a ton of people made a ton of complaint threads, then I would be happy for them. If they don't, I would assume Bethesda had good reason to do so. Not just... "We don't wanna"...