Just as bad, let's not do either.

I agree. My whole point wasn't about never criticizing anything at all. Just about choosing what's actually fair and worthwhile to criticize, and the means in which you criticize it.

Well, I have very high standards for TES. Unlike most games where I'll play them for maybe 20 hours if I'm lucky, TES can keep me going for hundreds more. Nothing is perfect, but only perfection cannot be improved - and while there are things to be improved I don't think pointing them out is in any way a bad thing. Saying something svcks? Absolutely, keep that to the schoolyard. Saying something svcks because *? Let's have more of that.

Bethesda are the greatest! They do much more for their fans than some developers.

It's an anger valve release. They are angry that Bethesda won't listen or won't consider what they think is a good idea or one that was/is achievable to add so they need to release their anger. In that case writing out a detailed and constructed argument is pointless since all people want to do is express what they would say aloud in written word. It's like the people at the pub bad mouthing politicians, they don't have any positive suggestions or inclination to get into a policy discussion so they just bad mouth the politicians for how they don't care about common people etc.



People will always complain about things that are wrong and rarely comment on things that are right. This is the same for hotel reviews, comments about politicians, etc. Gaming is the same. The fact people will play their game is the reward that the developers get (and the small amount of remuneration too). It's the same with me and my mods. My reward is that people download and play my mod - not that they post in the comments thread and commend me for my effort.



Don't buy the 5 hour games and the developer will eventually go broke. That's how the free market is technically meant to work...



This goes back to Bethesda not caring about our feedback. Really they don't. A well constructed argument or a small rant have the same effect. Consider why they removed Fallout 3's ending in Broken Steel. It wasn't because people wrote well constructed arguments about how the emotional effect of the ending was weakened by the fact that your companions should have been able to enter the radiated chamber in your stead, it was because they whined about how you should be able to play after the main quest like you could in Oblivion. That was the main point of argument. That they expected to be able to play after the main quest. Hardly 'constructive' or 'productive' no?



We're getting tied down in the details of what people are asking for here so I'm not going to get into a discussion about what Bethesda could or couldn't do/add or couldn't add if they had more time. Bethesda makes the design decisions it does because it believes it will either 1) make the game more enjoyable or 2) make the game sell better (that's what marketing is about...I studied some marketing at university ). Our feedback, particularly before the game is irrelevant no matter how well argued since they just don't consider it when making their game. A number of months back last year I wrote what I thought was a rather well constructed piece on how enchantments broke Oblivion's RPG combat mechanics and suggested several changes to the enchantment system that would allow the game to keep the 'always hit' mechanic while avoiding the problem that your skills became pointless once you introduced an enchantment onto the weapon. Do I think any of those sensible changes will make it into the game? No, because Bethesda makes design decisions on it's own, so I could have had the same effect by writing a post saying 'Oblivion's combat was broken. They should change it back to Morrowinds'. They don't reconsider anything until after the game is out.



That's the best advice that I could give you as well. And if after release day you find a feature that you really can't stand you know what they say about joining them >_> (watch out though because the mods tend to ban people around release time who complain because they consider them to be 'flamebaiters' and 'trolls'...so I wouldn't advise complaining around November 11).

I like the word 'critisism' better. I'd like critisism on a game of cource, but it has to be constructive.

The Expensive Shirt from Tribunal had a small cape on the back... :shrug:

Well then why isn't there going to be an Expensive Shirt in Skyrim!

This svcks!

It's a forum, ppl have right to express their view point - either bad or good they have emotions, why restrain themself or ignore the problems?

It's this mentality of "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all" that is what drives me insane... NO, if a have something bad to say, i have a reason to back it up and the right to say it. Ignoring problems just makes them worse. No developer is perfect, there will always be things ppl don't find appealing so it's perfectly fine they express their view point. Ignoring problems and forceing your self into likeing things you don't is bad and kinda sad...

Don't mistake criticism with trolling

They removed arms as armor slots and clothes under armor to make better looking armor, (it also far easier to make good looking armor with oblivions system)
No it does not explain robe over armor that would not require design changes jut better slot handling. Robe hide upper and lower body, skirt hide pant / greaves as some armor hides amulets.
To compensate enchants in Oblivion is stronger than in Morrowind, perhaps with the exception of daeric armor.

It's not even close to that though. "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all"?

No. I'm saying. "If you don't have anything good to say, then say what you want in a respectable, logical, and constructive manner".

That's all. I'm not telling people to praise this game and never speak a bad word about it. That makes just as little sense. The game still isn't out yet, so people cannot know that it's definitely going to be amazing. It works both ways. However, stating your issues in a cohesive manner will lead to great conversations and much more productive ideas on how Bethesda can make this game better.

Then we are on the same boat, couse that's what i meant

Yes it's right to complain. complaining about a video game is just constructive criticism, it's what makes the developers know what people want, and what people dont like.

:hugs:

If nobody complains, how will the world get any better? Complaining is good in generall, assuming that there acctually are competent people at Bethesda who can make a difference :goodjob: much unlike EA where all the incompetent [censored]' work.

WE ALL svck IS THAT WHAT YOU WANTED TO HEAR

Im happy if Dx11 is added.

YES! Now bow before the gods at Bethesda! :flamethrower:

:wink_smile:

No. Not a ridiculous amount of content. More than expected? Maybe. More than average? Definitely. Spears would be a simple thing to add, and they were a part of the series until Oblivion, like a lot of things. Things that shouldn't have been taken out. Things were taken out from Daggerfall to Morrowind too. Now, some things need to be taken out perhaps, but there are things that don't need to, and shouldn't be, taken out. Spears, levitation, crossbows, etc... are some of them. Saying it's ok not to have these things because gamesas has given us more than the average developer is stupid. Have standards.

Im a grumpy old man.
Complaining makes me.. well, not happy, because Im a grumpy old man. It statisfies me.

In all seriousness, the people on this forum are here because we are great fans.
In all the games I have ever played, there is only one series I have ever bothered looking up the forum for.
Only one I care enough about to take the time to voice my opinion on.

Thats whats it about. We complain because we care, because we feel an emotional connection. We are fans.
Im sure that for the vast majority of us its not so much complaining as concern for 'our love'.
We want it to turn out right.

Have standards? I think your standards are far to high if anything. Bethesda doesn't give us more content then the "average" developer. They give us more than "most" developers. They took those items out because it gave them more time to improve the fundamental gameplay elements of the game. Was the combat not vastly improved upon in Oblivion from Morrowind? Was the character interaction not vastly improved upon in Morrowind from Daggerfall?

I can't think of ten developers that offer as much content as Bethesda does with each and every one of their releases. You expect too much. You can't have all these great gameplay improvements AND every single weapon and item from past TES games in one. It would take them a ridiculous amount of time to develop.

So little is known atm, which in itself is not a bad thing.
However it limits us to the little we do, so repetitive complaints about minor topics are going to be frequent.
Also due is that alot are new time users, and come straight on to post their views not realising that many are bored and will just cut them down unfortunately.

You could break down many of these complaints into these groups..
1st: Those that have concerns and wish to know why such has been done.
2nd: Those that expect the Dev's to read their post and obey like lap dogs.
3rd: Those that assume all others agree with them and any that don't are to be shouted down.
4th: Those that current information has not addressed concerns that the game is going to focus on anything other than generic gameplay / combat.
5th: Those that think certain ideas have long been ignored, overlooked or misplaced.
6th: Those that like to wind people up.
7th: Those that like toilets.
8th: Those that have spotted an error and seek to point it out so after release it has to be patched.

That many complain is a sign of hope, we could scream again and again about how great it looks.
Looks are not everything, no matter how many videos we see, how many pictures, no matter how many reviews.
We never see or hear about the stuff that matters to us, especially not discused by an informed and neutral party.
That is why we have posts here, as, as long as we post within forum rules we can freely point out our concerns.
Or even rip the game to shreds should it fail, again as long as we are civil to each other and follow the guidelines.

Bethesda are brilliant game developers however without criticism there wouldn't be improvement. If we accepted mediocrity we will receive mediocrity. Bethesda do listen to the fans over certain things however it is their decision whether they take into account what we say. The fact they listen and talk to this community shows they care, carefully considered criticism is fine however moaning for the sake of moaning (i.e. you just don't like the series) is not acceptable or productive.

I haven't really noticed much complaining (compared to some other RPGs' forums, Skyrim's are amazingly positive); in fact, there seem to be more "why the complaints?" threads than there are complaint threads.

And criticism is to be expected, and can be constructive. There's a difference between complaining ("why won't they change this!") and pointing out a disliked feature ("I'd prefer it if they changed this").

Admittedly I didn't read much of your post, but I have two things to say:

Firstly, complaining about complaining isn't exactly going to solve any problems.

And secondly, if people didn't complain about what they didn't like, the series would never improve. Think of all the changes Bethesda have made for Skyrim because people complained about Oblivion. Now, I'm not one of those people who complain as all of the things I disliked about Oblivion were already being shouted from every corner of the forums (I will concede that the level of complaints can be excessive at times), but I do feel that it shows the developers how their customers feel about their games, if it were all praise they wouldn't change anything and the series would have been stale after Daggerfall. Just ignore it like I do.