So true. I am a fan and I care about this, otherwise I wouldn't read or post here.

We are an audience to a game still in development. Even when a post sounds negative, it often express a desire or a concern and I have little doubt that the poster is looking forward to play the game. All of us forum posters are a roaring mass of people that encourages Bethesda to make the most of their product because we want to love it. We are like screaming fans in a sports stadium who wants our team to do their very best and make us happy. I am certain that they are aware of our attention, and the increasing number of posts and topics in here means something even if they don't have time to read many of them.

Please, do read more of my posts then, because you completely missed my points.

I already addressed the "complaining about complaining" thing.

"Clever! But I'm not complaining about the complaining. I'm asking if you feel the complaints are necessary or even fair?"

And again, I already address your second point.

"It's not even close to that though. "If you don't have anything good to say, then don't say anything at all"?

No. I'm saying. "If you don't have anything good to say, then say what you want in a respectable, logical, and constructive manner".

That's all. I'm not telling people to praise this game and never speak a bad word about it. That makes just as little sense. The game still isn't out yet, so people cannot know that it's definitely going to be amazing. It works both ways. However, stating your issues in a cohesive manner will lead to great conversations and much more productive ideas on how Bethesda can make this game better."

Hope that explains my thoughts more clearly to you! :foodndrink:

Theres a difference between complaints and legitimate concerns. Part of the reason why people complain so heavily is because they actually care about this franchise. From the very first time I played Arena, I fell for the Elderscrolls world. I played Daggerfall for two years non-stop. Redguard and Battlespire(one of the most underappreciated games IMO). Morrowind continued that beautiful tradition and met all expectations. Oblivion was the first game where I felt a bit of a disappointment. It was BEAUTIFUL graphically, but it seemed rather shallow. The world had suddenly become rather 'clean' and 'sterile'. Where was the 'gritty' taverns? Where were the different political factions trying for your loyalty or death? The thieves guild will kick you out for killing someone? Quests often could only be solved or achieved in a single manner with a single outcome. I mean why would my assassin character really care all that much that an all girl gang were robbing men with infidelity issues?

There were serious breaks in the formula that I was expecting from an elderscrolls game. That doesn't mean that Oblivion wasn't a good game. I am sure that every new person who didn't have the same expectations of that series, probably found the game quite enjoyable. Great games created STRONG emotional ties to them. People do want to relive a bit of that greatness everytime a new game in the series is produced. People that started the series with Oblivion and absolutely loved it, will start finding problems with Skyrim as well... I guarantee it. There will be changes that differs from their expectations.

My standards aren't too high. There are so many things that could easily be asked and expected of Skyrim that won't happen simply because gamesas doesn't have to meet them to make the amount of money they're going to make. My expectations are more along the lines of consistency. I love that they add things, but dropping things is lazy and they're just streamlining the series to the point that it will eventually be indistinguishable from your yearly installment of whatever generic game is being pumped out as a cash crop for some faceless company.

Was the combat not vastly improved upon in Oblivion from Morrowind? No, it wasn't. That's entirely opinion. The combat in Morrowind was fine. Maybe not very exciting or thrilling and based entirely on numbers, but that's what RPGs generally are. I'm in the school of thought that says Oblivion's combat WAS better than Morrowinds, but vastly? Please, that's a ridiculous claim. Many many weapons were removed as well as weapon types. Enchantments were gimped to hell. Axes were classed as blunt weapons. The difference between the weapon types were completely aesthetic. Every weapon type had the EXACT SAME power swings/perks. The only reason to pick one weapon type over another was to be able to more effectively use different artifact weapons because otherwise the game was almost completely unchanged. Level scaling also ruined combat. I'm not gonna go indepth there because that was a big enough disaster that anyone will know what I'm talking about.

Character interaction was actually a step back in Oblivion. I'm not sure where you're coming from there. NPC to NPC conversation was absolutely awful and should have been done way better. The "Speechcraft" system came straight out of Mario Party 12, the dialog was very brief and unvaried, and the voice acting was absolutely awful, not to mention the facial "expressions". I'll take Morrowind's rich "encyclopedia" NPCs over Oblivion's robotic 1 liners any day of the week. Hell, Daggerfall's NPCs were, in a lot of ways, better than Morrowinds.

I don't expect any more from gamesas than I do from myself. All I want is an honest effort to make a good game; not just to make good money. My standards aren't too high, you just don't have any. The things that are added are, for the most part, good. But there's no reason to take away the things that are being taken away. It's unimaginative and lazy. You're just too busy being distracted by all the bells and whistles that they use to sell games.


Couldn't put this any better myself. While it's common practice for [censored] to kiss the butthole of whatever game developer makes their favorite game, I can't quite do that. I love Morrowind. Daggerfall is amazing, too, but I have trouble getting into that with the bugs. I don't want those 2 to be the end, though. I don't want to go forward with TES games knowing that they were the pinnacle of what gamesas can accomplish and that it's all downhill from there. I'd like them to create a game that's BETTER than both of those games. Patting Bethesda on the back because Oblivion was an above average game that was tolerable enough for me to play through a few times isn't really the best way to promote improvement in the series.


This, too, is an excellent post to drive the point home that we're all trying to make. It's hard to have concerns here without being labelled as a Morrowind really devoted fan or w/e by the rabbid mainstreamers that want the best graphics they can get. It's not so much that we're Morrowind [censored]. If you want some generic label to stamp on all of us, we're simply Oblivion haters. Oblivion is TES IV, not Morrowind II. I prefer Morrowind over Daggerfall because Daggerfall is dated and buggy. Other than those 2 key things, Daggerfall is, in my opinion, better than Morrowind. I even enjoyed Arena quite a bit. The comparison, because of release dates and chronology, is between Oblivion and Morrowind, but it's a truer statement that we love ALL the TES games EXCEPT Oblivion, rather than we love ONLY Morrowind. That's what most people seem to miss. Yes, the series will change, but until Oblivion, the changes were never seen as grossly negative things. Oblivion was just a disaster of a TES game. It was a great game in general, but a bad TES game.

I`m complaint free at the moment because i would rather wait and find out more about the game. I don`t feel I know enough about the game content to voice any opposition so far.

Yep I might have blind faith in BGS but then I really enjoyed all the TES games so far, so I trust them with the Skyrim development. The trailer content helped in that respect also.

I`m not bothered about the water in the trailer as overall it looks brilliant for the Xbox 360, and i`m sure the PC version will be a lot nicer eye candy again.

Spears - I can live without. 3 skills less - I can live without. Spellmaking - Not bothered if that`s in or out, as I never used it in Oblivion anyway.

Yep i`m pretty darn happy with the content thats in. I will just wait until we get a lot more info before I make my final judgement, but right now i`m ecstatic and positive about Skyrim.

I don't want to put word in your mouth, but if you are implying that Bethesda only makes games as expansive as Skyrim just to make some money... I don't even know what to say.

Bethesda puts more time and effort into there games than most developers can even fathom. That much is obvious when you compare any Bethesda game to any other game on the market. If you can name 10 other developers that give you as much content as Bethesda does, I might see where you are coming from. As it stands, claiming Bethesda took out content because "they can still make money off the game" is just... Ugh, I can't even respond. You may not like the mechanics they add, but there's no denying they worked their asses off to add them. They make games that they love to play. They've said that numerous times. If they only cared about making money, they could get away with only putting together an open world with 8 hours worth of content. Because that's what 85% of the other games out there give you these days.

Please tell me this isn't what you were implying.

Because they want Skyrim (or TES VI) to be better than it currently is...

BTW: IS NO CAPES REALLY CONFIRMED???

I wasn't implying it. I was saying it... I don't know how that was too subtle for you... lol? gamesas is a business. They make games to make money. They make them to a certain degree so as to be considered the best. They have a franchise with a reputation of being the best, so they put in all the effort required to keep that going. They don't go above and beyond to make the games the best they can be. That's obvious by Oblivion. It doesn't make them bad people, it just means they're doing their job. What we aim for by pointing out problems with the game, such as the removal of pretty basic, traditional components, is to push them to make the game awesome instead of just good. Better than TES games instead of better than EA games. Sitting here posting "OMG DRAGONS AND GRAPHICS! YOU ROX BGS!" does nothing except create a comfortable laziness where the game has already sold itself to everyone with nothing but a trailer. Being very critical of the game in development, as was the case with Morrowind, is a great way to get the point across that "look, we see what you've done, but, let's be honest here, you could do way better" and then praising the game AFTER release and patting them on the back for meeting your expectations. Morrowind had complaints in its development cycle, but, as all the Oblivion [censored] love to point out, we all love Morrowind. Why? Because, regardless of what we don't like about the game, it turned out to be a damn good game. Not just a good game, a good TES game, and that's what all of us who complain want to see. A good TES game. You're happy with a good game, and that's fine. But if you're wondering why we complain, I'm telling you. I can't be any more clear than this.

Biased poll is biased.

I'm all for limited the doomsayers and all, but those who are completely complacent can be just as bad. Constructive criticism often helps the developers and improves upon a game, instead of hindering it. It's time you understood that concept, instead of writing people off as whiners.

Here's an anology for you.

First, watch this YouTube clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSM1mvMypWU.

Those of us who demand more from Bethesda serve the same purpose as the coach. Bethesda is Brock. You who praise the developers for everything they ever do serve the purpose of Brock's mom I guess. Encouraging for the sake of encouragement.

Why all the complaints?


Because that's all people can do right now. There's only a bit of actual information released, and we obviously can't play the game yet, so all there is to do is 1) complain about nitpicks, and 2) speculate about nitpicks.

I find this thread amusing for a number of reasons:

1. There are far More happy posts about this or that then there are complaints in this forum, and many complaints get recycled over and over again. I think the volume of actual complaints is far lower than the non-complaining posts.

2. We live in America, where freedom of speech and expression are Truly honored - so folks expressing their views Should be perfectly normal to Americans.

3. Bethesda encourages debate here as long as it stays within the rules and flaming is kept out - this forum does better than any I have been on at keeping it well-policed and clean. I stay here because of the great atmosphere that the moderators create.

4. With such HUGE appeal for this game, the range of opinions on topics will be 360 degrees - so no matter what BGS does, some peeps will hate it, some will love it. That is just the nature of free speech.

I don't see the problem with this, peeps should and Will be allowed to complain if it's in the rules, and we shouldn't be chastising peeps for voicing their own opinions - THAT is un-American.

Yet again, I need to explain this further.

I'm not saying you shouldn't "complain". I'm saying that by sharing your thoughts in a constructive, logical, and respectable fashion, your thoughts will be better received and more productive. Let me make that clear for the last time.

I am not saying that you should do nothing but praise the game. Not even close.

As for them not working as hard as they could. Well, I'd love to hear their reaction to that statement. Like I said, they give you more content than most, if not all, developers out there. You think your standards aren't too high? I think that's ridiculous. You can say you want a good "TES game" all you want, but by any standards in the gaming industry, what they have given us so far is above and beyond. Can you even fathom comparing a game like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Fallout 3 to the average game released these days? They aren't even in the same ballpark. No, they're not even in the same country where that ballpark is. It's ridiculous to say they aren't working as hard as they can to give us the best game they can in the time they are given. Maybe you don't like the areas they focus on when developing... but that in no way means they aren't working as hard as they can.

Unbelievable. If you think that of Bethesda then I can't imagine what you think of the average developer. Because by your standards, nearly every other developer out there are nothing but greedy little leprechauns.

You wouldn't have to clear stuff up if you made a better poll. People tend not to read the fine print when you have poll options as ridiculously biased as yours.

I'd like to hear their reaction, too, but they're not going to react on it at all, really. It wouldn't make much sense for them to do so anyway. Their answer to that is obvious and it would be an arbitrary response. If I could sit down and chat with them, though, that'd be different (actually I suppose I'm not even that far away from the studio). In a weird way, you seem to agree with me, though, about the lack of effort or improvement. You're trying very hard to compare Oblivion and/or Skyrim to other games and avoiding the point that, comparing them to the rest of the TES series, Oblivion is the weakest link. And I already said Oblivion is an above average game, why would I compare it to an average game? That's just stupid. There are plenty of above average games released that I could easily compare it to, though.

There's one thing I'm curious about, though. You say they offer more content than anyone else. You don't honestly feel that way, do you? About Oblivion I mean. There are a handful of armor sets, a handful of weapon sets, hardly any unique items (and the ones that are unique generally use existing models), a handful of enemy types (many of which are variations of existing enemies), a few different dungeon types. I think you see where I'm going with this. Oblivion had barely a fraction of the amount of content the Morrowind had. Morrowind had a fraction of content that Daggerfall had. If Skyrim has a fraction of the content Oblivion had... well, there won't really be a whole lot of content. But I'm glad you helped draw the focus on yet ANOTHER shortcoming of the most recent TES game, which gives us even more reason to raise concerns here.

I didn't answer. This poll is biased.

Often threads that discuss content are not "complaints", even though they are perceived that way by some. They're usually feature requests, bug fixes and/or constructive criticism, or just creativity - people like to chat about the games they love even if sometimes it's about the things that they don't like. And anyway, maybe Bethesda also wants "complaints" for whatever information they can extract about what people want in the game, or perhaps just for their own entertainment.

I would agree though that all of the repetitive threads are quite annoying - people should search the forums first before staring new topics with the same exact content. But this will never change, so just learn to skip those topics.

The ideal feedback would be a mix of expressing praise for things we enjoy (we have more than enough of that) and criticism on the things we dislike/are concerned about (currently, as soon as someone points out anything as justified and reasonable as an erroneous windmill, someone inevitably pounces on him, labelling him a whiner). To be on either extreme is bad, for we need some of both to contribute to the game's development. Being ridiculously dramatic and stating that Skyrim will be a complete failure for 'x' factor you don't like is silly, as is being ridiculously dramatic and stating that the game will be perfect regardless of any worrisome factors and that anyone who points out a minor flaw should be a heretic to be burned at the stake.

We need people to be mature and cool-headed about this, taking a reasonable stance and overall being allowed to express their opinions on the game. Extremists on both ends crop up now and again, but they fail to convince anyone with their silly rants.


Uhm... I'm not American, don't live in American and many, many others on this forum are also not American or live in the U.S.
Please don't appropriate either Skyrim or the concept of free speech as 100% American. The game is developed in America by Americans but targeted to an audience well beyond just its own borders, and the concept is older than most modern countries, including the U.S.A.

I'm not even going to get into Oblivion with you. I understand why people, like yourself, dislike what Oblivion offers but I don't agree. I love Oblivion. I've literally spent over 1,000 hours playing it and I still haven't seen and done everything. If that's not more content than any game out there these days then what are you playing? Cause I'll have what you're having.

As for the poll. Please, enlighten me. What options would you put up there? If you and anyone else who feels the same way can give me some better options, or even a new poll, I'd gladly put it up there.

Obviously reading what I have to say is too much effort, so otherwise I'll just delete the poll.

How about, oh I don't know, "Yes" and "No" instead of sticking a specific mindset with each one. "Is this right?" with the options "Yes, I'm awesome" "No, I'm [censored]" is basically a parallel to your poll. For someone who claims to not want to stick words in someone's mouth, you sure did a good job of doing just that in your poll.

And if you've played Oblivion for over 1,000 hours and still not seen and done everything, then you need to stop playing the exact same way every time because I saw everything well before that, and without even trying to be a completionist or anything. Either you're heavily exaggerating or inadequate, and maybe that's why you're satisfied with a game as shallow as Oblivion.

If you add this in the poll

I'm saying that by sharing your thoughts in a constructive, logical, and respectable fashion, your thoughts will be better received and more productive. Let me make that clear for the last time.

I'll definitely vote it up

Oh so, you basically ignored the second and fourth options on the poll. I see.

Yes, I've replayed the game multiple times, often repeating quest lines, but I had fun each and every one of those times. I don't just try and do every single thing I can. I do what I want, when I want, which is the freedom Oblivion offers me. If the game is still entertaining to me then why would I stop playing it? Like I said, I'm not going to get into Oblivion with you. I've seen this argument a thousand times and it never goes anywhere. Some people aren't satisfied with it. Some are. In the end it doesn't matter to me personally because I enjoyed, and continue to enjoy the game, and no matter how much you disagree, it won't change my opinion of the game. Nor will I change your opinion of it.



Done! :celebration:

Appropriate Skyrim? The game is made in America. It would be hard for us to appropriate it what is already made here.

I don't recall anywhere in my post where I indicated that Free Speech is 100% American - can you point that out for me? I think your reading into my post what you want to see. Of course the game is made to ship in other countries - I never indicated otherwise.

I made it Very clear that IN America, Free Speech is one of our founding virtues and we try very hard to at being true to it - Much Moreso than many other countries on Earth - something I'm very proud of.

And to the point of "Americanism", this forum is built, run and managed by Americans - with moderators from all over the world. The rules are built around our culture of free speech, and thus I don't see that it makes any sense that we should Not complain or that we should hold our tongues because some folks don't like complaints.

Biased weak poll.
What do you want a company being warned about its product not satisfying, or a flop and a genre abandon, or even a bankrupcy ?

Thats the question isn t it.
But there s always the ones that smile at any bone throwed at them.

The second and fourth options of the poll don't say yes. They haven't been ignored. Like I said, you attached very specific mindsets and biases to your poll options. The only way to vote yes is to basically choose the option that admits "even if it ruins the game". If you can't see the bias there, then you have more issues than originally thought.

And I've replayed the same bits of Oblivion over and over again as well (though mostly because there's not really any other option). Sure, it's still entertaining to go through the same stuff with a different character, even if it feels EXACTLY the same, but in all the time I played Morrowind (WAY over 1000 hours), I didn't HAVE to play the same bits over and over again. I could enjoy playing NEW stuff constantly. It's nice to be in a world that allows you the freedom to whatever you want without offering you a dozen different things to do over and over and over again. Oblivion is just a very shallow game. It's fun, but there's barely any content. The main reason it might seem like there is is because there's lots of slightly varying dungeons and a lot of travel space between them. It's an illusion, really.

Again, not getting into Oblivion.

Also, the poll is brand new. Please, illuminate any bias it may present!

The one Imperial officer in Ebonheart had a cape. MW apparently wedged them into the game as an afterthought only for a couple of specific NPCs. Capes used the shirt slot, which had the bizarre side effect that if you wore a cape, it moved the existing shirt to inventory. That made for some hilarious moments when I first sold a mod-added cape looted from a MCA bandit to a merchant, and she promptly equipped it.

As for the complaints, we wouldn't complain if we didn't care about the game and the direction that we feel it's heading. Players want to see what they enjoy, and don't want to see what they feel will detract from their personal enjoyment, which is only natural. As long as the criticism is about elements of the game, not about the poster, I don't have a problem with it. When somebody tells me that I'm being stupid for liking or not liking what I do or don't, then they've earned whatever rude reply I make in turn.

Complaining is like a rocking chair: it won't get you anywhere, but at least it gives you something to do. It's a long time until November, and that chair's going to be rocking a lot between now and then.