This thread has potential.

Clearly you have low charisma and they simply don't like you. Wouldn't you be suspicious if your boss was suddenly friendly with the enemy that replaces people with replicants?

I ended up persuading them to stand down.

But the fact that I have to do that rather than them just obeying a simple order to hold back while the General goes in speaks volumes about their command structure. Or lack thereof.

I mean they outright state they don't have to listen to you if they don't want.

Oh, popcorn!

*om nom nom*

So anyway, yeah, this ain't just some order to be "leery" of. This order is akin to ordering pirates to stop drinking rum or ordering Maxson to date a synth or certain football teams to not svck. It goes against their very nature and anyone giving that order should be questioned.

Ok, I'll level with you. For the sake of argument, lets say The MM are in the right in this particular instance.

The problem, as others have point out, is where does this lead? What happens, one day, when they turn out to be wrong about an order? And yet still disobey The General?

General: You have to go in there and save that town.

MM: Uh, actually General, we think the town is fine. Besides, we think that town is full of jerks. I think you're wrong on this bro.

General: If we don't help the town they'll be slaughtered.

MM: Nah, they're fine. Besides: jerks.

General: ...

*innocent town is slaughtered. MM end up surrounded by hostile forces because they refused to secured a fortified position. Curtain draws*

Its just a terrible system. And that's ultimately the main problem with The Minutemen. Morally, they're the best faction in Fallout 4 (largely because they have no idealogy but thats beside the point). But, all things considered, they are the worst organized and disciplined.

The fact that the General's orders can be directly disobeyed based on a whim, just means that practically, the General has no real authority within the group. He's a first among equals. And thats the main problem with them. That could very easily go very, very wrong one day. Even if they get lucky a few times. The MM are not infallible.

Edit: And, following that anology, what if the pirate captain orders his crew to stop drinking rum for a bit, because there's a very good reason for doing so? But by the pirates ignoring the order and just drinking rum anyway, they end up getting ripped apart by her majesty's royal marines because they were too drunk to fight?

"F3 Lucas Simms-F4 Preston Garvey"Are you seeing a pattern here?.Now i cannot wait for the next Django of Fallout 5.

The SS could ask for volunteers to make a standing miltia-army. Or have volunteers been train then sent to all settlements to train the militia there.

as others said it is not that people hate preston or the minuteman , people are just irritated by the minuteman radiant quest system which can become very repetitive and usually make no sense

meaning when a group of settlers up north on the map is asking you to kill some gjouls on the other side of the map or when you need to rescue the dame settler from a group of raiders for the thirs time in a row at the same location

it are those things that irritate people , especially each time you come near preston he is there with some other radiant quest ni matter how busy you are with ither quests

there are howeverseveral ways around this first one is to complerely ignore that faction , sure go to concord get the powerarmor and the perception bobblehead but after that just leave them in the museum

second one is to set up base somewhere else than sanctuary there are 30 other locations you can set up shop some of them better than sanctuary

a third option is do the radiant quests but do not finish them by talking with preston , occasionally settlers will ask you for help but it is uncommon

minuteman have some of the coolest game mechins available for you , artillery andf one of the best weapons available , the last minute gaussrifle and they are the good guy

i do not hate preston or the minuteman only pathetic jun and lazy junkie murphy

I don't hate Preston or the minutemen. I avoid Preston because of the constant quests he gives you.

If you ask Preston what happened in Quincy, he'll tell you that they lost because the rest of the minutemen didn't show up to help in the battle. As the general, if I gave orders to defend a town and only a few minutemen showed up causing the battle to be lost. The blame would be placed on me for loosing the battle and I wouldn't like that.

I have a dislike of the Minutemen because they are too

Mary sue like. Saint Preston can do no wrong. All the other factions have flaws. Flaws are important for character growth.

I think the confusion in this whole MM General debate is determined on what choice in dialog you use. When I showed up to the site, the MM were excited to see me and said they got the institute right where they wanted. That's when you are given the dialog options and I believe you could simply order them to stand down or you can be nice about it and ask them to stand down and to trust you. I'm sure you will get a different reaction with each choice because although I remember the MM being upset about being asked to stand down, I dont remember anything along the lines of them telling me my role doesnt mean jack or anything along those lines. The MM are not robots nor are they BoS Grunts. They are regular people who decided to take up arms and join a noble cause. Many of these people do not have military grade training, they may be hunters or farmers that happen to know how to brandish a gun. You cannot amass a huge army out of thin air where everyone in said army will be the most disciplined and cooperative soldier to agree to orders that go against what they signed up for. If they show up to help someone and then anyone let alone the general in their militia tells them not to do their job.... they are not going to just go along with it without question. It takes months if not years to instill that type of "obedient behavior" into a human being. Given the circumstances of the commonwealth... and the fact that at the beginning of the game there were only 2 members in the minutemen, yourself and Preston, growing in numbers seemed to have happened swiftly.

Now if someone like Preston would second guess your every action and claim you aren't worthy of a general title after it was his damn idea in the first place.... then maybe you'd have a point... but when a random minuteman not even worthy of a name second guesses your "authority" because it interferes with the purpose of the MM, that's not something that is so far fetched and unbelieveable. That minuteman has not been with you throughout your travels to understand what exactly you have been dealing with. For all you know, that MM's family could have been murdered or kidnapped and he is just extremely passionate about making things right and if he feels you are interfering with that, emotions are going to fly. In the end though, the Minutemen do stand down because you asked or told them to and THAT alone, despite how skeptical of that order was, proves your title is not so empty as you thought.

If you approach the Minutemen like you would the BoS... you are going to be disappointed everytime. This is what sets those two factions apart. It wouldn't make sense to have to identical factions.

Wasn't the whole problem at Quincy that the leadership was ignored. The other MM just didn't want to go help, so they didn't, and the entirety of the remaining MM 'leadership' were killed.

Anyway, I have basically started to ignore the request. In fact I ignored Sanctuary so much the last character I played their Happiness went down to a 4, but of course the settlement didn't disband or anything since all those settlers were unique NPC's (at least I guess that's why). Curious though what you would have to do to get a settlement to actually leave the MM. Anyway right now I'm only giving the settlements I have the basic minimums and doing nothing to increase their sizes. They are basically on their own. I will help if they are attacked if it's convenient just for the loot.

But I still just don't like Preston. Just the way he'll bring up that another settlement needs help just irks me, "Hey thanks for all your help but I hope you don't mind but I heard of another settlement that needs our help..." Honestly I think the game would just go a lot smoother if I just found the settlements and helped them (or not) on my own. I mean he already told me I should help those I find that need help. So fine, I'll help them when I find them, now stop pointing me in the direction of others that need help cause I've got other things to do.

lol I am going to make an assumption, dont hate me if I'm wrong... but something tells me your approach is what brought forth the response from the MM you got. Did you simply command them to stand down, and then when they questioned you, you got angry/upset and then tried to use you general/authority status in order to persuade them?

Whoa... that is definitely not anything like what happened in this scenario and I couldn't ever imagine the MM disobeying a simple order that has nothing to do with moral stance. You can even order regualr settlers to farm or run shops or even travel the dangerous roads as provisioners without them even THINKING of saying no to you... let alone commanding the MM to secure a town? This is not even close to the same thing lol

Again... I think it was your approach. The general of the MM gains respect by how he Leads AND how he treats his fellow men. If you're going to go bossing people around and then undermining them because they want to know what's going on during a situation that seems to be going against their entire reason of being a MM... not only are they not going to respect you.. but they are going to LEAVE the MM because it would turn out to not be what they signed up for and YOU will be the one left standing alone. Again this is not a military/government ran institution... these are people that signed up and are not obligated to remain "signed up" forever under some type of contract that considers you AWOL if you quit. If you dont help settlements enough.. guess what.. you lose their support. Same will go with the men that risk their lives to follow you, albeit not without question, but will follow you into hell if it was in line with what the MM stand for.

Yeah, okay. So the General can't act 'bossy'. Seriously? That's absolutely hilarious if the MM can't take a little bit of boss from their supposed commanding officer.

"Stand down men, this isn't what it looks like."

"You know what? I don't think I like your tone General. You just sit in the corner and think about what you did."

"Stand down men.....please."

"Now was that so hard General? But you still get a time out."

Now, from what I remember, the player doesn't take an overly 'jerkish' tone (and I can't believe that has to be said about a supposed 'General'). And he can even compliment them on doing good work before, calmly, asking them to stand down. They will flat out refuse, citing that "This ain't the military, and I don't have to take orders from you."

I don't deny that The MM work on the principle of "everyone is equal. And the General ain't nothing but a guy like us, I don't have to do what he says if we don't like him." Which is why I said The General is basically a "first among equals" a guy that basically just has a title, but it adds no real weight to his name. Anymore than say, Preston or the Ronnie. They are all citizen soldiers, fighting alongside other citizen soldiers. Its a hodge-podge volunteer force.

My point though, is that this is whats wrong with the organization. The MM are the most "moral" faction in the game, but the downside to them is that their organization and discipline is utter [censored] compared to say: The Brotherhood of Steel.

Yes. Exactly.

See above at LeBurn's post.

Something similar is exactly what happened to Quincy. MM ignored an order to send men. This is the sort of thing that brought down the MM in the first place. They refused an order.

http://i.imgur.com/kDvOPOr.jpg

They outright state that the General has no authority over them.

I feel like the whole organization is an upside down pyramid where if I just quit it will collapse under its own weight. Again.

Militias are just not sustainable.

I don't hate the MM or Preston. My problem is rebuilding them feels pointless and their only purpose seem to be settlement building not building a army and/or government. Why can't we send troops to defend settlements instead of the SS doing it alone? I don't feel like a created an army but do a bunch of farmers and Preston dirty work.

Being polite and not sounding like a bossy control freak are two different things. But still funny.

Being a boss and being a leader are also two different things. It's not about being polite but about respecting other's concerns when for example, being told not to answer a call of distress that on top of it all has to do with the institute. This is the absolute only time YOU are questioned. Whatever happened in Quincy had nothing to do with you but with a bunch of minutemen who at the time felt the minutemen were coming to an end anyways and were probably planning on joining a raiders or gunners outfit. Poor leadership was the problem in that case.. which is the issue we're addressing. Think about it, we were appointed general after doing one job... honestly... if you cannot live up to your job, you will be taken out of it and replaced. It happens all the time in leadership positions. Being general does not make you hier to the throne. It's a job that needs to be done the right way and even those who are supposed to follow orders can throw you out of your position.

I like that pic you posted because it actually spelled out exactly what we were trying to make clear. "We are not the military...." <~~~ exactly right. The minutemen are men that stand on their own feet. They stand together because their morals align with the next fellow minuteman. If your actions or orders are questionable in accordance to those morals... you better believe the minutemen are going to oppose. You see this as weakness but I see this as strength. It makes it extremely difficult for the minutemen to become corrupt. All it takes is one General who loses his moral mind and decides to abuse his authority and turn the minutemen into the Gunners 2.0.

It seems to me like the BoS is more your cup of tea.

This is basically what I'm saying. Each member of the MM is an equal to every other member. There's really no 'ranks' because they don't respect those ranks in the same way that, say, The Brotherhood does.

Being "General" doesn't give you anymore authority over the group than Preston or Ronnie. Because the MM are all individuals that follow orders based on if they personally agree with them or not. If the General says something, but they like what Preston says more: you bet that they're going to follow Preston's orders over the General.

And that is the issue with the organization. Its not a military and doesn't have military organization or discipline. Is that a bad thing? Depends on how you look at it, I think you hit the nail on the head with one:

Pro: Less of a chance of a dictator forming.

Con: Quincy.

I think you're taking it to an extreme that is unnecessary lol. Being general makes you a leader. As long as your moral compass is not questionable, they WILL and DO follow commands. Someone has to be the spokesman for the MM when the time calls. But to blindly follow orders without questions takes a type of person who is trained/programmed to do so. The're no MM boot camp that I'm aware of. I've never been to the military but I am well aware that when fresh recruits join up... boot camp is hell for them because it's difficult for someone with free will to immediately get into the habit of following orders on command.

Let me ask you this. I the general ordered a minuteman to execute a random innocent person even though that minuteman knew that person was innocent.... would you truthfully expect that minuteman to point his musket at that person and blow their head off without question? Would that seriously make sense to you? lol

edit: You have to realize that being a leader is more than barking orders. Even the greatest leaders still have to explain themselves to their followers. You used a Pirate Captain as an example... you do realize, that if the Captain gave an insane order to his men such as no rum or wenches for the next 30 days.. he better damn well have a good explaination for this and if he simply says "because I said so" you would be thrown overboard and fed to the sharks before you could say mutiny.

What happens when the MM's 'moral compass' turns out to be wrong? Or if it turns out they assumed wrong about a situation?

And again, see above. The MM don't just refuse orders based on moral standing. They refused orders to go help at Quincy as well. So its incorrect to say they'll *only* disobey orders they think are morally questionable.

I'm not sure what else to say, except to repeat that the game makes it pretty clear that the MM view themselves all as equals. They'll obey your orders, when they want to. If they disagree with the orders, for whatever reason, they clearly have a tendency to not give a fig.

Which ultimately means that being "General" of them is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares situation.

I dont think you're being fair with your examples though. You're making the leader role seem like it's the end all be all of ultimate authority. It's not. You can play the what if game both ways. What if they're wrong? What if they're right?

Another example: When Max orders you to kill Danse. If you chose not to kill Danse, you are doing the exact same thing you're calling the MM out for. Does this mean you dont respect Max as a genral (or w/e rank he was lol)? Does it mean you wouldnt ever follow any of his orders? Not necessarily unless that's the type of character you made.... it just means in this instance, you truly believe Max made the wrong call. And if you're CHR is good enough, you can convince Max not to kill Danse as well. This doesnt mean you out rank Max, it just mans he was able to see reason or see his mistake and with draw his previous order. Even Generals can make mistakes and what kind of mindless dumb drones do you truly want within your outfit that cant think for themselves when the time calls. Not me. Sometimes even the general needs a kick in the butt to stay on the right path.

On another note... you do realize even in the military, there are certain rules an officer has to abide by that if broken even a private can over rule his authority and take him down?

Maxson makes it pretty clear that if you disobey him, you're being insubordinate. Because that's what the Brotherhood is: an organized military. They have ranks and defined organization.

The MM have no such organization. Which they state outright "This ain't a military. And I don't have to take orders from you." Again, they refused orders at Quincy as well: and look where that led. That wasn't because their general ordered them to put a gun in someone's mouth and pull the trigger. You're acting like the only situation where MM will not obey orders is if you command them to commit a war crime: but that's not true.

Again, the game makes it clear the MM aren't a military. They are an ad-hoc volunteer militia. Citizen soldiers, in which their leaders are first among equals. They give you an honorary title, and will obey your orders when they think they're the right orders to give. The problem with this system, of course, is that they aren't infallible.

If you want to be a authoritative military commander, then join The Brotherhood. The Minutemen is not the place for that.

The IRL Minutemen were replaced by the Continentals, a standing Army, for a reason. A Citizen Militia has it's uses, but it is a thin reed to base your whole defense on. What the Commonwealth needs is a standing Army, and that requires a government to raise and support it, as well as supply oversight. The MM is too dependent on the personalities of it's commanders....as Ronnie tells you when she brings up General Becker. The group quickly dissolved upon his death, and if the SS died the same thing would happen again.

Refusing to kill Danse was Insubordination in the face of the enemy....a crime that under most nation's Military Law is a capital offense. The situation wouldn't have happened if Maxon had a more nuanced policy on synths...say, destroy the means to make synths and punish their creators, but deal with the existing synths on thier own merits.....but nobody is perfect. While you can talk Maxon out of it, sparing Danse...and the SS...has the potential to gravely damage both Maxon and the Brotherhood's credibility if it becomes widely known.

That sounds exactly what you want lol. I never said I wanted. The issue here is that you think just because men wont drop their pants for you in a minutes notice, that means you're not a leader. I already explained the Quincy situation. The minutemen were already falling apart and many of them were already planning to join raiders or gunners... sounds like they made terrible minutemen to begin with.

And it's easy to point the finger and say "look what happened" after the fact... but if things had gone differently then what? Disobeying an order doesnt automatically = worse possible outcome of any given situation. Such is life, you dont know what's coming around the next corner and no matter how good or bad of an order you make or whether [censored] hits the fan or not after obeying or disobeying that order is not garrunteed. Now before you go on to say "whats the point of a rank"... let's make sure we're addressing these situations rather than making up random scenarios.

SS shows up to standoff.

Minutemen think their leader/general is coming to support them as he has mostlikely always done 100% of the time.

The people in the house called for help because the most notorious boogyman terrorist organization is currently inside. Something that does not happen... ever... in any minuteman's experience.

SS suddenly tells minutemen to back off.

Minutemen asks why.

(this is where details become important)

SS either threatens them with authority or attempts to reason with trust as to why he cannot tell them anything more.

Depending on the method of persuasion used, the MM will either reluctantly agree or snap at you for mistaking the Minutemen as mindless BoS grunts which they clearly are not.

Ultimately, the minutemen stand down. They obey the order whether they agree with it, like it or not. What exactly is your issue? Is it that they didn't give you a "Yes Sir!" Salute at the end of your order?

Of course they follow orders when they want to.... if they dont want to do something that goes against their morals.. why would they follow that order? lol

Max can tell you you're being insubordinate all he wants.. in the end.. you still dont follow his order. And Danse stays alive. AND you remain in the BoS ranks. Infact I think you STILL get PROMOTED to Paladin lmao.... IDK what you're talking about...

But the minutemen are supposed to be? lol